8 ms·

They choose it a bit. First eating all the day long some crap (sweets, processed food, fiberless industrial food), drinking sweet sodas and not walking/doing re

They choose it a bit. First eating all the day long some crap (sweets, processed food, fiberless industrial food), drinking sweet sodas and not walking/doing real sports is a choice. It's the choice to live unhealthy. They should feel bad the same way smokers should feel bad. It's quite a disrespect for oneself.

amrocha 4y ago
There's people that don't do all that and are still fat, and making them "feel bad" about it is counter productive. In fact, the research on losing weight is quite clear: once you've put on weight, losing it and keeping it off is nearly impossible, and requires life long constant effort. Instead of focusing on individual behavior, you should be speaking out against a government that built a car society, made cities hostile to walking and biking, and made cheap unhealthy food the easiest and cheapest option for most.
- gadders 4y ago
  Citation needed. Nobody gets fat without over-eating. Walking and exercise in general make less difference to weight loss than diet. People know what food is healthy. If they choose not to do it, it's on them.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    1. people do get fat from things other than "over eating" - citation: https://www.drugs.com/article/weight-gain.html https://www.drugs.com/article/weight-gain.html 2. I'm the great-grandparent in this thread. My original comment was in essence: I am naturally skinny, nobody questions that. Is it so strange that people might be naturally fat? You've said something that DIRECTLY contradicts that argument, without any evidence or argument to explain why - all you've done is assert the opposite of what I said. You're going to have to do better. Citation needed on your part.
    - gadders 4y ago
      Nobody is "naturally fat". In animal husbandry, people breed livestock for their "feed conversion ratio" - I.e which animals can most efficiently convert the same amount of food into the most additional bodyweight. It's not a stretch to think something similar might happen in people. However, if you're one of those people that puts on more weight per item of food then it sucks to be you, but you'll need to eat less food. Re: your point about medicines - I doubt they manage to create additional calories out of thin air.
      - kennywinker 4y ago
        There are medicines that change how your body processes the calories you eat, and the balance may be that in order to get the nutrients you need to stay in good health, you need to eat in a way that causes you to gain weight. There are certainly drugs that increase your appetite, meaning you the effort required to eat less increases dramatically. But... your overall point is that people need to suffer in discomfort for their entire life so their body looks the way you want it to look? Or so that they stay in good health? If someone is faced with the choice of being fat and happy for 75 years, or being skinny and suffering for 80 years (or whatever the lifespan difference is), why do you feel like your opinion about that choice is something anybody needs to hear? Why is someone else’s choice your business? Do you think that someone should be ashamed or embarrassed about choosing one of those? I didn’t have to make that choice. But if I did i would 100% choose fat and happy, and i would be upset with anyone who tried to make me unhappy for my choice - especially if it’s coming from someone who didn’t have to make that choice themselves
        gadders 4y ago
        >>But... your overall point is that people need to suffer in discomfort for their entire life so their body looks the way you want it to look? Or so that they stay in good health? If someone is faced with the choice of being fat and happy for 75 years, or being skinny and suffering for 80 years (or whatever the lifespan difference is), why do you feel like your opinion about that choice is something anybody needs to hear? It's nothing to do with how I think people should look aesthetically, and I don't think the difference is about an extra 5 years of life. There is also "health-span" to consider - i.e. are you bed bound or unable to walk to the shops in the last few years of your life? >>why do you feel like your opinion about that choice is something anybody needs to hear? You seem confused as to the purpose of the comment section on a website. Discussing differing views is the whole point of it, I thought. I'm not running up to overweight people in the street and shouting abuse at them. I'm also not mandating six packs. A certain level of fat is healthy. And I also have zero problem with people like this who own it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG8k8ouN8ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG8k8ouN8ro The people I have contempt for are the "Healthy at any size" liars.
  - amrocha 4y ago
    You're not providing citations either. Get off your fat hating high horse. Walking and exercise make a HUGE difference in average weight. Just look at Canada, a place mostly analogous to the US, but with way more walkable cities and better public transit. They don't have this problem. Regardless of how people get fat, we know for a fact that it's nearly impossible to get back to a healthy weight. Children of fat parents are more likely to be fat, both because of genetics and because of diet. Is it their fault that they were born that way?
    - gadders 4y ago
      Here's the citations: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy https://researchblog.duke.edu/2021/03/24/duke-researcher-busts-metabolism-myths-in-new-book/ https://researchblog.duke.edu/2021/03/24/duke-researcher-bus... I got back to a healthy weight by losing 15kgs. It can be done.
    - inglor_cz 4y ago
      "Walking and exercise make a HUGE difference in average weight. " Interesting. I like to walk generally, but in the last year, with a fresh Garmin watch prodding me into more steps, I increased my walking by at least 50 per cent. I actually made some 5 million steps last year, at least 7 km every day, in every weather. My weight fluctuated a bit, but basically didn't change. I am not fat, but I have some amount of belly fat I don't like. What really changed and improved was my immune system. I am not totally immune to everything, but I tolerate a lot more environmental distress (cold, hot, sweating, getting soaked by rain etc.) before encountering first symptoms of having a cold.
      - amrocha 4y ago
        Yeah, that's consistent with the research. It seems like the body really likes to stay at a given weight, so it adjusts so there's not too much fluctuation. That's why it's really hard to lose weight and keep it off if you've been fat for a long time. What exercise helps with is making sure that the occasional binge, or change in circumstances, doesn't lead to permanent weight gain. If you're temporarily disabled for 2 weeks and can't move and put on some weight, your body then burns more of that fat when you go back to exercising, or regulates your appetite so you eat less. But if you're not used to exercising and then suddenly increase your caloric intake, your body has less opportunity to burn the extra fat, so it leads to long term weight gain, and eventually your gut biome and body adjust to the new normal.
  - rolisz 4y ago
    No, but some people process different food differently, so eating the same amount of food might lead to different weight in different people. And no, the jury is not out on what food is healthy. Carbs are public enemy number 1 according to keto people. Carbs are the best according to Italians.
  - manmal 4y ago
    I agree with the part that diet is way more important than walking and exercise, in the short term. But not exercising can lead to obesity long term. Here are some other things that can cause obesity / type 2 diabetes aside from dietary choices: - Microbiome (eg due to bad microbiome passed on at birth): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27255389/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27255389/ - Sitting the whole day - Circadian rhythm disturbance, eg through shift work - Gestational diabetes increases infant‘s T2D risk later in life - Hypothyroidism - Hypogonadism / low Testosterone - Chronic inflammation, eg via inflamed root canals or chronic infections. People can have eg low grade E. coli overgrowth without knowing. - Low gut barrier function due to drugs or inflammation - many many more
    - gadders 4y ago
      I would be hugely surprised if there are any conditions that can cause obesity without eating excess calories unless the people concerned have learnt to create excess calories by photosynthesis or something.
      - manmal 4y ago
        Define „excess“ though. If metabolism is out of whack, a person might need to overfeed in order to get enough glucose into cells. If they don’t, cells/mitos are stressed and damaged.
  - P_I_Staker 4y ago
    I like to eat healthy. It's extremely impractical unless you constantly cook, and do so the "hard way", with fewer shortcuts. Yes, there's "less bad" options, like not eating your whole meal, and/or buying "fake health" food. Healthy convenience food is very hard to come by and the unhealthy stuff is everywhere.
mort96 4y ago
> They should feel bad the same way smokers should feel bad. Smokers are chemically and behaviourally addicted to a substance that's killing them. Just like alcoholics and heroin addicts. It's probably appropriate to view obese people (food addicts) in a similar way. I don't understand the reaction of telling them to feel bad though. People who are addicted to harmful substances deserve sympathy and medical care.

amrocha 4y ago

There's people that don't do all that and are still fat, and making them "feel bad" about it is counter productive. In fact, the research on losing weight is quite clear: once you've put on weight, losing it and keeping it off is nearly impossible, and requires life long constant effort. Instead of focusing on individual behavior, you should be speaking out against a government that built a car society, made cities hostile to walking and biking, and made cheap unhealthy food the easiest and cheapest option for most.

gadders 4y ago
Citation needed. Nobody gets fat without over-eating. Walking and exercise in general make less difference to weight loss than diet. People know what food is healthy. If they choose not to do it, it's on them.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  1. people do get fat from things other than "over eating" - citation: https://www.drugs.com/article/weight-gain.html https://www.drugs.com/article/weight-gain.html 2. I'm the great-grandparent in this thread. My original comment was in essence: I am naturally skinny, nobody questions that. Is it so strange that people might be naturally fat? You've said something that DIRECTLY contradicts that argument, without any evidence or argument to explain why - all you've done is assert the opposite of what I said. You're going to have to do better. Citation needed on your part.
  - gadders 4y ago
    Nobody is "naturally fat". In animal husbandry, people breed livestock for their "feed conversion ratio" - I.e which animals can most efficiently convert the same amount of food into the most additional bodyweight. It's not a stretch to think something similar might happen in people. However, if you're one of those people that puts on more weight per item of food then it sucks to be you, but you'll need to eat less food. Re: your point about medicines - I doubt they manage to create additional calories out of thin air.
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      There are medicines that change how your body processes the calories you eat, and the balance may be that in order to get the nutrients you need to stay in good health, you need to eat in a way that causes you to gain weight. There are certainly drugs that increase your appetite, meaning you the effort required to eat less increases dramatically. But... your overall point is that people need to suffer in discomfort for their entire life so their body looks the way you want it to look? Or so that they stay in good health? If someone is faced with the choice of being fat and happy for 75 years, or being skinny and suffering for 80 years (or whatever the lifespan difference is), why do you feel like your opinion about that choice is something anybody needs to hear? Why is someone else’s choice your business? Do you think that someone should be ashamed or embarrassed about choosing one of those? I didn’t have to make that choice. But if I did i would 100% choose fat and happy, and i would be upset with anyone who tried to make me unhappy for my choice - especially if it’s coming from someone who didn’t have to make that choice themselves
      - gadders 4y ago
        >>But... your overall point is that people need to suffer in discomfort for their entire life so their body looks the way you want it to look? Or so that they stay in good health? If someone is faced with the choice of being fat and happy for 75 years, or being skinny and suffering for 80 years (or whatever the lifespan difference is), why do you feel like your opinion about that choice is something anybody needs to hear? It's nothing to do with how I think people should look aesthetically, and I don't think the difference is about an extra 5 years of life. There is also "health-span" to consider - i.e. are you bed bound or unable to walk to the shops in the last few years of your life? >>why do you feel like your opinion about that choice is something anybody needs to hear? You seem confused as to the purpose of the comment section on a website. Discussing differing views is the whole point of it, I thought. I'm not running up to overweight people in the street and shouting abuse at them. I'm also not mandating six packs. A certain level of fat is healthy. And I also have zero problem with people like this who own it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG8k8ouN8ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG8k8ouN8ro The people I have contempt for are the "Healthy at any size" liars.
- amrocha 4y ago
  You're not providing citations either. Get off your fat hating high horse. Walking and exercise make a HUGE difference in average weight. Just look at Canada, a place mostly analogous to the US, but with way more walkable cities and better public transit. They don't have this problem. Regardless of how people get fat, we know for a fact that it's nearly impossible to get back to a healthy weight. Children of fat parents are more likely to be fat, both because of genetics and because of diet. Is it their fault that they were born that way?
  - gadders 4y ago
    Here's the citations: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy https://researchblog.duke.edu/2021/03/24/duke-researcher-busts-metabolism-myths-in-new-book/ https://researchblog.duke.edu/2021/03/24/duke-researcher-bus... I got back to a healthy weight by losing 15kgs. It can be done.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    "Walking and exercise make a HUGE difference in average weight. " Interesting. I like to walk generally, but in the last year, with a fresh Garmin watch prodding me into more steps, I increased my walking by at least 50 per cent. I actually made some 5 million steps last year, at least 7 km every day, in every weather. My weight fluctuated a bit, but basically didn't change. I am not fat, but I have some amount of belly fat I don't like. What really changed and improved was my immune system. I am not totally immune to everything, but I tolerate a lot more environmental distress (cold, hot, sweating, getting soaked by rain etc.) before encountering first symptoms of having a cold.
    - amrocha 4y ago
      Yeah, that's consistent with the research. It seems like the body really likes to stay at a given weight, so it adjusts so there's not too much fluctuation. That's why it's really hard to lose weight and keep it off if you've been fat for a long time. What exercise helps with is making sure that the occasional binge, or change in circumstances, doesn't lead to permanent weight gain. If you're temporarily disabled for 2 weeks and can't move and put on some weight, your body then burns more of that fat when you go back to exercising, or regulates your appetite so you eat less. But if you're not used to exercising and then suddenly increase your caloric intake, your body has less opportunity to burn the extra fat, so it leads to long term weight gain, and eventually your gut biome and body adjust to the new normal.
- rolisz 4y ago
  No, but some people process different food differently, so eating the same amount of food might lead to different weight in different people. And no, the jury is not out on what food is healthy. Carbs are public enemy number 1 according to keto people. Carbs are the best according to Italians.
- manmal 4y ago
  I agree with the part that diet is way more important than walking and exercise, in the short term. But not exercising can lead to obesity long term. Here are some other things that can cause obesity / type 2 diabetes aside from dietary choices: - Microbiome (eg due to bad microbiome passed on at birth): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27255389/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27255389/ - Sitting the whole day - Circadian rhythm disturbance, eg through shift work - Gestational diabetes increases infant‘s T2D risk later in life - Hypothyroidism - Hypogonadism / low Testosterone - Chronic inflammation, eg via inflamed root canals or chronic infections. People can have eg low grade E. coli overgrowth without knowing. - Low gut barrier function due to drugs or inflammation - many many more
  - gadders 4y ago
    I would be hugely surprised if there are any conditions that can cause obesity without eating excess calories unless the people concerned have learnt to create excess calories by photosynthesis or something.
    - manmal 4y ago
      Define „excess“ though. If metabolism is out of whack, a person might need to overfeed in order to get enough glucose into cells. If they don’t, cells/mitos are stressed and damaged.
- P_I_Staker 4y ago
  I like to eat healthy. It's extremely impractical unless you constantly cook, and do so the "hard way", with fewer shortcuts. Yes, there's "less bad" options, like not eating your whole meal, and/or buying "fake health" food. Healthy convenience food is very hard to come by and the unhealthy stuff is everywhere.

mort96 4y ago

> They should feel bad the same way smokers should feel bad. Smokers are chemically and behaviourally addicted to a substance that's killing them. Just like alcoholics and heroin addicts. It's probably appropriate to view obese people (food addicts) in a similar way. I don't understand the reaction of telling them to feel bad though. People who are addicted to harmful substances deserve sympathy and medical care.