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I'm interested in 3. Is there any research or data about that? I do not encourage fat shaming at all, but I can also imagine that in some cases shame may be a

by dudul 4y ago

I'm interested in 3. Is there any research or data about that? I do not encourage fat shaming at all, but I can also imagine that in some cases shame may be a powerful motivator for some people. Is there hard data showing that it actually makes it harder?

shmoejoe 4y ago
What I’ve always heard is that if it’s something someone can’t fix in 5 minutes they probably already know and you telling them isn’t helping Now it’s a different story if you’re willing to work with them daily to help them lose weight or something similar. But just telling your friend “he your fat, it’s bad for you fix it” will only hurt
zdragnar 4y ago
Shame implies a personal failing, which readily translates into feelings of guilt and helplessness. It is not at all a constructive approach. The "healthy obesity" thing is the pendulum flying to the opposite end of the spectrum: unconditional support turned into acceptance and promotion of what we know to not be true.
- stametseater 4y ago
  Alternatively: "Shame implies a personal failing, which readily translates into recognizing and correcting those personal failings." In the 20th century, Americans fat shamed each other and were less fat. Today in Asia, people still fat shame each other and they're a lot less fat than Americans.
thebooktocome 4y ago
What is the control group for your proposed experiment and how can I join it?
irrational 4y ago
Anecdotally, I made a comment to a non-obese 20 something year old about how it is unhealthy to be obese. They went absolutely ballistic saying that I was fat-shaming and that you can’t say obesity is unhealthy.
- leidenfrost 4y ago
  Many fat shamers use t Health as an excuse to allow themselves to treat fat people like shit. Unfortunately getting into that argument is a minefield. Just let them be adults and manager their life as they please. At one point they might becone fed up with life as a fat person and they'll make the effort. And it they don't, well, there are people who smoke from teenage years all the way to the grave But, either eay, people dont humiliate smokers the way they do with fat people
  - 29083011397778 4y ago
    > But, either eay, people dont humiliate smokers the way they do with fat people No, we just tax the shit out of tobacco, exclude them from certain insurance plans, blame and shame them about smoking indoors or inside vehicles, and tell smokers to go huddle outside and off to the side, away from doors, windows, and air intakes, while they do the thing we don't like. Or were you thinking of air travel, where the difference between a smoker and a non-smoker is either negligible (because they aren't currently smoking), or completely excludes the smoker from the activity (because 16 hours in a plane is too long without a cigarette for them). Humiliate them? Not often. But we sure as hell told them to take it someplace else; anyplace else, just not near the rest of us.
    - beej71 4y ago
      The analogy breaks down. I don't shame anyone for smoking. But if you want me to breathe your smoke, that's another story.
polio 4y ago
I think shame can be powerful for many people, but it has negative side-effects that don't seem to be necessary. Obesity also has large genetic and environmental components[1], as well. Shame can make it hard for people to seek help, since the shame can be internalized to the degree that they don't feel like their life is worth fixing. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-stephen-guyenet.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/opinion/ezra-klein-podcas...
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Not just that - the fear of being told their health issues are due to their weight (regardless of whether that's true) and the consequent feelings of shame can discourage many people from seeking medical help of any sort, often until it's too late. But it would be just as irresponsible for a medical professional to tell a patient their obesity is healthy as it is to immediately attribute whatever medical complaint they might have to excess weight (which, from what I've heard, still happens a lot).
ip26 4y ago
Consider that some cases of overeating are driven by the dopamine bump food provides. Perhaps you are depressed, or bored, or insecure. If you are shamed for your body, you feel even worse; you may then eat even more to feel better.
frankzander 4y ago
Shame is a powerful demotivator. Guilt is a good motivator.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- navjack27 4y ago
  No. Both suck.
  - asfarley 4y ago
    No, they are good and useful.
mcphage 4y ago
> Is there any research or data about that? Well, we’re probably 70+ years into a National experiment with it, and weights are only going up.
ebiester 4y ago
Here's a small list of studies: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-thing... . The short of it is that it increases stress, increases depression, eating disorders, and risk of suicide. As for shame and its ironic effects, you can look to Brene Brown's research and that of other shame researchers.
_gabe_ 4y ago
Just some anecdata here, but I was toeing the line between overweight and obese about a year ago. I read David Goggins book Can't Hurt Me, and one of the things he talked about was having a note in the mirror reminding you of your goals (real novel concept ikr?). Anyways, the way he phrased it was something like, "If you're fat and don't want to be, right down the raw truth on that note and read it every morning, then write down how you'll fix it". I wrote something along those lines down, and read it every morning. The guilt and shame I felt from allowing myself to slip up this bad definitely helped motivate me. 1 year later, and I'm down 35 pounds with another 10-20 to go. I feel great! Walking doesn't hurt anymore, doing physical stuff is fun again, and I have more energy than I used to. All that to say, the guilt and shame definitely helped motivate me, but YMMV :)
- gadders 4y ago
  Good going mate.
- dudul 4y ago
  Congrats. As someone pointed out in another replies I can totally see how the guilt, and not the shame, may be the strongest motivator.
- itqwertz 4y ago
  Constant reminders are great, just make sure to put some positive ones up, too. On a related note, find yourself in a woman’s house and notice the inspirational text artwork. “Eat, Love, Pray”, “Worrying works because it never happens”, etc. These little signs are powerful.
CuriousSkeptic 4y ago
Section 5.3 of this report covers it a bit: https://www.who.int/europe/publications/i/item/9789289057738 https://www.who.int/europe/publications/i/item/9789289057738 A bit brief though, probably need to check the cited material. The overall theme of the report as awhile though is that motivation issues are less of a factor than generally believed.

by dudul 4y ago

shmoejoe 4y ago

What I’ve always heard is that if it’s something someone can’t fix in 5 minutes they probably already know and you telling them isn’t helping Now it’s a different story if you’re willing to work with them daily to help them lose weight or something similar. But just telling your friend “he your fat, it’s bad for you fix it” will only hurt

zdragnar 4y ago

Shame implies a personal failing, which readily translates into feelings of guilt and helplessness. It is not at all a constructive approach. The "healthy obesity" thing is the pendulum flying to the opposite end of the spectrum: unconditional support turned into acceptance and promotion of what we know to not be true.

stametseater 4y ago
Alternatively: "Shame implies a personal failing, which readily translates into recognizing and correcting those personal failings." In the 20th century, Americans fat shamed each other and were less fat. Today in Asia, people still fat shame each other and they're a lot less fat than Americans.

thebooktocome 4y ago

What is the control group for your proposed experiment and how can I join it?

irrational 4y ago

Anecdotally, I made a comment to a non-obese 20 something year old about how it is unhealthy to be obese. They went absolutely ballistic saying that I was fat-shaming and that you can’t say obesity is unhealthy.

leidenfrost 4y ago
Many fat shamers use t Health as an excuse to allow themselves to treat fat people like shit. Unfortunately getting into that argument is a minefield. Just let them be adults and manager their life as they please. At one point they might becone fed up with life as a fat person and they'll make the effort. And it they don't, well, there are people who smoke from teenage years all the way to the grave But, either eay, people dont humiliate smokers the way they do with fat people
- 29083011397778 4y ago
  > But, either eay, people dont humiliate smokers the way they do with fat people No, we just tax the shit out of tobacco, exclude them from certain insurance plans, blame and shame them about smoking indoors or inside vehicles, and tell smokers to go huddle outside and off to the side, away from doors, windows, and air intakes, while they do the thing we don't like. Or were you thinking of air travel, where the difference between a smoker and a non-smoker is either negligible (because they aren't currently smoking), or completely excludes the smoker from the activity (because 16 hours in a plane is too long without a cigarette for them). Humiliate them? Not often. But we sure as hell told them to take it someplace else; anyplace else, just not near the rest of us.
  - beej71 4y ago
    The analogy breaks down. I don't shame anyone for smoking. But if you want me to breathe your smoke, that's another story.

polio 4y ago

I think shame can be powerful for many people, but it has negative side-effects that don't seem to be necessary. Obesity also has large genetic and environmental components[1], as well. Shame can make it hard for people to seek help, since the shame can be internalized to the degree that they don't feel like their life is worth fixing. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-stephen-guyenet.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/opinion/ezra-klein-podcas...

wizofaus 4y ago
Not just that - the fear of being told their health issues are due to their weight (regardless of whether that's true) and the consequent feelings of shame can discourage many people from seeking medical help of any sort, often until it's too late. But it would be just as irresponsible for a medical professional to tell a patient their obesity is healthy as it is to immediately attribute whatever medical complaint they might have to excess weight (which, from what I've heard, still happens a lot).

ip26 4y ago

Consider that some cases of overeating are driven by the dopamine bump food provides. Perhaps you are depressed, or bored, or insecure. If you are shamed for your body, you feel even worse; you may then eat even more to feel better.

frankzander 4y ago

Shame is a powerful demotivator. Guilt is a good motivator.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
navjack27 4y ago
No. Both suck.
- asfarley 4y ago
  No, they are good and useful.

mcphage 4y ago

> Is there any research or data about that? Well, we’re probably 70+ years into a National experiment with it, and weights are only going up.

ebiester 4y ago

Here's a small list of studies: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-thing... . The short of it is that it increases stress, increases depression, eating disorders, and risk of suicide. As for shame and its ironic effects, you can look to Brene Brown's research and that of other shame researchers.

_gabe_ 4y ago

Just some anecdata here, but I was toeing the line between overweight and obese about a year ago. I read David Goggins book Can't Hurt Me, and one of the things he talked about was having a note in the mirror reminding you of your goals (real novel concept ikr?). Anyways, the way he phrased it was something like, "If you're fat and don't want to be, right down the raw truth on that note and read it every morning, then write down how you'll fix it". I wrote something along those lines down, and read it every morning. The guilt and shame I felt from allowing myself to slip up this bad definitely helped motivate me. 1 year later, and I'm down 35 pounds with another 10-20 to go. I feel great! Walking doesn't hurt anymore, doing physical stuff is fun again, and I have more energy than I used to. All that to say, the guilt and shame definitely helped motivate me, but YMMV :)

gadders 4y ago
Good going mate.
dudul 4y ago
Congrats. As someone pointed out in another replies I can totally see how the guilt, and not the shame, may be the strongest motivator.
itqwertz 4y ago
Constant reminders are great, just make sure to put some positive ones up, too. On a related note, find yourself in a woman’s house and notice the inspirational text artwork. “Eat, Love, Pray”, “Worrying works because it never happens”, etc. These little signs are powerful.

CuriousSkeptic 4y ago

Section 5.3 of this report covers it a bit: https://www.who.int/europe/publications/i/item/9789289057738 https://www.who.int/europe/publications/i/item/9789289057738 A bit brief though, probably need to check the cited material. The overall theme of the report as awhile though is that motivation issues are less of a factor than generally believed.