7 ms·

Sometimes, but other times e.g. COVID-19, our immune systems work extremely well in all except the very elderly and obese.

hammock 4y ago
I’m sorry you are a victim of deplorable disinformation. The vaccines actually prime our immune system to fight the infection, and Covid is killing children not just the elderly and body positive
- MaxfordAndSons 4y ago
  Sorry this is ot, but I can't help but note: replacing "obese" with "body positive" is a wildly Orwellian linguistic move. They aren't remotely synonymous, nor do the groups they actually denote fully overlap (not all obese people are body positive, nor are all body positive people obese).
  - groestl 4y ago
    It's so over the top that it actually registered as cynism with me.
- realjhol 4y ago
  The evidence is all out in the open now - there's really no hiding from it any more. In randomized control trials of the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines here in the UK, we now know the risk of serious adverse effects was 12.5 per 10,000 vaccinated i.e. a ~1 in 800 change of serious adverse effects: 22-Sep-22 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36055877/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36055877/ The UK government has now published its estimate of the number of people needed to vaccinate to prevent a COIVD-19 hospitalisation: 25-Jan-2023 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1131409/appendix-1-of-jcvi-statement-on-2023-covid-19-vaccination-programme-8-november-2022.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... For example in the 20-29 year no-risk group, the number needed to vaccinate to prevent one hopitalisation is 168,200. To prevent one serious hospitalisation requiring oxygen or ventilation you would need to vaccinate 706,500. Even in the at-risk group for 20-29 years, the numbers are 7500 and 59,500 respectively. In fact there was no group except for 70+ where the risk of hospitalisation (not severe requiring oxygen), came close to the risk associate with vaccine injury. It's for this reason, that these mRNA vaccines are no longer being offered by the NHS. Look - I'm sorry you were lied to, but at some point you've just go to hold your hands up and admit the truth of the matter. Edit: plenty of downvotes, but no refutation.
  - ramraj07 4y ago
    Here’s your refutation: many of these results confound pre omicron Covid with omicron Covid - the former was 10-100x deadlier, and totally warranted global mandating of the vaccines even with the published SAR rates. After omicron, it is absolutely true that the adverse reaction rate from mRNA vaccines might not be worth the benefit of avoiding the relatively less fatal omicron variant diseases for young individuals. I will agree that regulatory agencies and many pro vaccine arguments are doing a disservice by not being thorough about such distinctions. That doesn’t mean the choices made pre omicron were invalidated. The mRNA vaccines did a great job and did them in time to protect millions more lives from being lost.
  - notahacker 4y ago
    You're comparing apples with oranges. The majority of the serious adverse effects reported in the original trials the first paper rehashes (15.1 effects per 10000 above a 6.4 effect per 10000 placebo baseline with some people reporting multiple effects, after the authors stripped out SAE's where the placebo group reported worse outcomes...) did not involve hospitalisation, never mind intubation. And a significant proportion of COVID infections that do not require hospitalisation (i.e not counted in the NNV metric) nevertheless involve serious adverse effects including both those credibly associated with vaccine side effects but more commonly in symptomatic COVID patients (myocarditis) and those not thought to have any association with the vaccine such as long term brain fog. The vaccines were found to have a high efficacy at reducing these types of symptomatic infections though.... More generally and unfortunately for the cranks, its noticeable that excess deaths and hospitalisation peaks follow COVID infection spikes, not the ramp up of vaccinations, and have declined considerably since the vaccination programmes began. It's almost like the professionals know better than someone who thinks influenza is a coronavirus...
ramraj07 4y ago
1/1000 people are dead in the US. Much more in places like in India. And yet here we are people still underplaying it. It’s amazing seeing rewriting of history right in front of your eyes for sure.
- realjhol 4y ago
  As I say, most of those are in extremely elderly or obese category.
  - parasubvert 4y ago
    This is a misunderstanding of how statistics work, and part of the lie that Covid is an old people and obese person’s problem. Not that you’re directly making this argument, but for posterity: It’s not just their problem. Unless you feel cardiology and oncology are also old and fat people’s problems, since they die more of cancer and heart disease? The extremely elderly and obese die of all causes disproportionately. But Covid lowers life expectancy and increases mortality of all age groups starting around age 30 even after all mitigating measures (vaccines, masks, etc) are taken in to account. The young lower their own life expectancy when they betray an inter-generational commitment to the older generations to take care of them. This won’t be the last pandemic, and the young won’t always be young.
    - realjhol 4y ago
      We have no idea what the long term effects of COVID-19 infection will be, however there's no reason to think the long-term impact will be any different from any other coronavirus flu. And given that the virus is endemic, and the vaccines only provided fleeting protection (they're not even being offered by the NHS here in the UK any more), we'll all get it sooner or later. There's no choice about it. Fortunately for the vast majority of people, COVID-19 is a mild disease that they will recover from quickly.
      - parasubvert 4y ago
        You have no idea what you’re talking about and are spreading misinformation. 1. SARS-CoV-2 is not influenza. 2. Influenza is not a coronavirus. 3. Influenza usually kills 300,000-500,000 people annually 4. Consensus estimates of excess deaths from COVID-19 are 14 million over the two years of 2020-2021. 2022 isn’t looking great either. 5. All developed countries highly recommend the annual Influenza vaccine even with its variable annual efficacy, as a way of lowering the intensity and spread. The same will likely continue in many countries for COVID-19, where the recent Bivalent vaccines show reduced but still significant effectiveness against the recent variants of SARS-CoV-2. 6. COVID-19 has raised all cause mortality and lowers life expectancy across all age groups starting before middle age. 7. The UK NHS continues to offer standard two dose and 3rd shot booster COVID-19 vaccines (all mRNA now) for children over aged 5 and adults. This has not stopped. Beyond this, they’ve limited additional boosters to seasonal programs for target populations that are at greater risk. They had one in the Autumn of 2022 and is staring a new one for Spring of 2023 for the immunocompromised and elderly (75+). The UK also signed a deal with Moderna to begin producing mRNA vaccines within the UK by 2025. The vast majority of the UK population have COVID antibodies and are at far less risk than they were in 2020, but this continues to be monitored and may require broader seasonal vaccination campaigns if immunity wanes. 8. As with any disease vector there always is a choice to use mitigations such as masks in crowded indoor spaces, vaccinations, etc. to lower the spread. This is something other countries learned decades ago.
RobotToaster 4y ago
It's kind of the opposite, the majority of deaths from covid were due to cytokine storm, which is your immune system working too well, and producing too many inflammatory cytokines.

hammock 4y ago

I’m sorry you are a victim of deplorable disinformation. The vaccines actually prime our immune system to fight the infection, and Covid is killing children not just the elderly and body positive

MaxfordAndSons 4y ago
Sorry this is ot, but I can't help but note: replacing "obese" with "body positive" is a wildly Orwellian linguistic move. They aren't remotely synonymous, nor do the groups they actually denote fully overlap (not all obese people are body positive, nor are all body positive people obese).
- groestl 4y ago
  It's so over the top that it actually registered as cynism with me.
realjhol 4y ago
The evidence is all out in the open now - there's really no hiding from it any more. In randomized control trials of the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines here in the UK, we now know the risk of serious adverse effects was 12.5 per 10,000 vaccinated i.e. a ~1 in 800 change of serious adverse effects: 22-Sep-22 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36055877/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36055877/ The UK government has now published its estimate of the number of people needed to vaccinate to prevent a COIVD-19 hospitalisation: 25-Jan-2023 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1131409/appendix-1-of-jcvi-statement-on-2023-covid-19-vaccination-programme-8-november-2022.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... For example in the 20-29 year no-risk group, the number needed to vaccinate to prevent one hopitalisation is 168,200. To prevent one serious hospitalisation requiring oxygen or ventilation you would need to vaccinate 706,500. Even in the at-risk group for 20-29 years, the numbers are 7500 and 59,500 respectively. In fact there was no group except for 70+ where the risk of hospitalisation (not severe requiring oxygen), came close to the risk associate with vaccine injury. It's for this reason, that these mRNA vaccines are no longer being offered by the NHS. Look - I'm sorry you were lied to, but at some point you've just go to hold your hands up and admit the truth of the matter. Edit: plenty of downvotes, but no refutation.
- ramraj07 4y ago
  Here’s your refutation: many of these results confound pre omicron Covid with omicron Covid - the former was 10-100x deadlier, and totally warranted global mandating of the vaccines even with the published SAR rates. After omicron, it is absolutely true that the adverse reaction rate from mRNA vaccines might not be worth the benefit of avoiding the relatively less fatal omicron variant diseases for young individuals. I will agree that regulatory agencies and many pro vaccine arguments are doing a disservice by not being thorough about such distinctions. That doesn’t mean the choices made pre omicron were invalidated. The mRNA vaccines did a great job and did them in time to protect millions more lives from being lost.
- notahacker 4y ago
  You're comparing apples with oranges. The majority of the serious adverse effects reported in the original trials the first paper rehashes (15.1 effects per 10000 above a 6.4 effect per 10000 placebo baseline with some people reporting multiple effects, after the authors stripped out SAE's where the placebo group reported worse outcomes...) did not involve hospitalisation, never mind intubation. And a significant proportion of COVID infections that do not require hospitalisation (i.e not counted in the NNV metric) nevertheless involve serious adverse effects including both those credibly associated with vaccine side effects but more commonly in symptomatic COVID patients (myocarditis) and those not thought to have any association with the vaccine such as long term brain fog. The vaccines were found to have a high efficacy at reducing these types of symptomatic infections though.... More generally and unfortunately for the cranks, its noticeable that excess deaths and hospitalisation peaks follow COVID infection spikes, not the ramp up of vaccinations, and have declined considerably since the vaccination programmes began. It's almost like the professionals know better than someone who thinks influenza is a coronavirus...

ramraj07 4y ago

1/1000 people are dead in the US. Much more in places like in India. And yet here we are people still underplaying it. It’s amazing seeing rewriting of history right in front of your eyes for sure.

realjhol 4y ago
As I say, most of those are in extremely elderly or obese category.
- parasubvert 4y ago
  This is a misunderstanding of how statistics work, and part of the lie that Covid is an old people and obese person’s problem. Not that you’re directly making this argument, but for posterity: It’s not just their problem. Unless you feel cardiology and oncology are also old and fat people’s problems, since they die more of cancer and heart disease? The extremely elderly and obese die of all causes disproportionately. But Covid lowers life expectancy and increases mortality of all age groups starting around age 30 even after all mitigating measures (vaccines, masks, etc) are taken in to account. The young lower their own life expectancy when they betray an inter-generational commitment to the older generations to take care of them. This won’t be the last pandemic, and the young won’t always be young.
  - realjhol 4y ago
    We have no idea what the long term effects of COVID-19 infection will be, however there's no reason to think the long-term impact will be any different from any other coronavirus flu. And given that the virus is endemic, and the vaccines only provided fleeting protection (they're not even being offered by the NHS here in the UK any more), we'll all get it sooner or later. There's no choice about it. Fortunately for the vast majority of people, COVID-19 is a mild disease that they will recover from quickly.
    - parasubvert 4y ago
      You have no idea what you’re talking about and are spreading misinformation. 1. SARS-CoV-2 is not influenza. 2. Influenza is not a coronavirus. 3. Influenza usually kills 300,000-500,000 people annually 4. Consensus estimates of excess deaths from COVID-19 are 14 million over the two years of 2020-2021. 2022 isn’t looking great either. 5. All developed countries highly recommend the annual Influenza vaccine even with its variable annual efficacy, as a way of lowering the intensity and spread. The same will likely continue in many countries for COVID-19, where the recent Bivalent vaccines show reduced but still significant effectiveness against the recent variants of SARS-CoV-2. 6. COVID-19 has raised all cause mortality and lowers life expectancy across all age groups starting before middle age. 7. The UK NHS continues to offer standard two dose and 3rd shot booster COVID-19 vaccines (all mRNA now) for children over aged 5 and adults. This has not stopped. Beyond this, they’ve limited additional boosters to seasonal programs for target populations that are at greater risk. They had one in the Autumn of 2022 and is staring a new one for Spring of 2023 for the immunocompromised and elderly (75+). The UK also signed a deal with Moderna to begin producing mRNA vaccines within the UK by 2025. The vast majority of the UK population have COVID antibodies and are at far less risk than they were in 2020, but this continues to be monitored and may require broader seasonal vaccination campaigns if immunity wanes. 8. As with any disease vector there always is a choice to use mitigations such as masks in crowded indoor spaces, vaccinations, etc. to lower the spread. This is something other countries learned decades ago.

RobotToaster 4y ago

It's kind of the opposite, the majority of deaths from covid were due to cytokine storm, which is your immune system working too well, and producing too many inflammatory cytokines.