8 ms·

If someone made fake milk that tasted like the real thing I would pay twice as much, no qualms, due to the environmental benefits (assuming it was provably a lo

by RobinL 4y ago

If someone made fake milk that tasted like the real thing I would pay twice as much, no qualms, due to the environmental benefits (assuming it was provably a lot less energy intensive), and also animal welfare issues

voisin 4y ago
Try switching to Oat milk for a month. At the end regular mill will taste less creamy and more watery than you remember and frankly will taste unappetizing. That was the challenge I was given and it 100% worked.
- afavour 4y ago
  I’ve found a great variation in oat milk quality. For the time being I’m an Oatly loyalist but the price is a notable premium over regular milk.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    There’s a great variation in ingredients! I like the ones that are made out of oats, water, maybe a little salt. 90% of the oat milks on the market here in Aus, and 100% of the ones marked as “Barista Style” contain oil, usually sunflower. I don’t think it needs it. It’s delicious ‘straight’.
- coffeebeqn 4y ago
  Nutritionally it’s nowhere close.
  - daneel_w 4y ago
    It isn't, but then again cow's milk and cheese shouldn't, and does not need to be, anyone's primary source of nutrition or caloric intake. The west's notion that children (and even adults) absolutely need milk every day "to grow up healthy" is a misconception.
    - the_third_wave 4y ago
      Nutrition does not equal caloric intake. There's minerals (calcium being an important one) and vitamins (especially fat-soluble ones A-D-E-K) as well as thiamin, riboflavin and vitamin B12. It also contains quite a lot of energy in the form of sugars (lactose) as well as fats but as you already stated this is not the reason why most people use dairy products.
      - daneel_w 4y ago
        Hence "_or_ caloric intake". The reality of my statement remains. Dairy products are an exception in e.g. Asian children's diets. Most Asian countries view the west's level of dairy consumption as gorging.
        the_third_wave 4y ago
        Dairy products have the big advantage of being available as long as you can keep a cow or sheep or goat or horse or camel alive which has made them staple foods in some places where food could get scarce because of cold, drought or a generally barren landscape. This is probably also what drove the evolution of a lactose-tolerant branch of Homo Sapiens in these regions as well as the growth of dairy-consuming cultures. The fact that Asian cultures tend to use fewer dairy products can be traced back to the fact that the conditions during the last glacial maximum [1] which gave rise to lactose tolerance mostly occurred in western and northern Europe. They also occurred in northern America but that continent seemingly did not have any humans on it yet. The mere fact that Asian cultures consider western dairy use to be extreme does not say that much, the same is said in many western cultures about some aspects of Asian food cultures. Fortunately we live in a time when people in east and west can partake in varied food cultures so we get to have cheese fondue one day, char siu the next and gravlax (cured salmon) the day after. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum#/media/File:Last_Glacial_Maximum_Vegetation_Map.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum#/media/Fi...
  - voisin 4y ago
    Can you expand?
- fulafel 4y ago
  Plus you get beta-glucan which helps with cholesterol. See eg https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10749030/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10749030/ > Consumption of oat milk for 5 weeks lowers serum cholesterol and LDL cholesterol in free-living men with moderate hypercholesterolemia
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  Only if you can ignore the bitter aftertaste, the overly 'creamy' taste and consistency and the fact that it does taste of watered-down porridge. If you decide to like the stuff anyway you might as well make it at home instead of paying some greenwashing company far too much for watered-down porridge. Oat 'milk' is ~10% oats, ~3% fat (rape seed oil works fine with its neutral taste) and some salt for taste. You can make the stuff in a blender, just take some oats - breakfast type works fine - and blend it with the other ingredients. The main thing to watch out for is that you run the blender in short bursts since running it for a longer time produces too much heat in the mixture which leads to a slimy unappetising result. So, short bursts until the oats have been shredded to the desired (small) size. Use immediately or store for later use, you'll have to shake it just like you have to do with the commercial variety. Taste-wise there is not much difference, you can make it taste any way you want.
  - voisin 4y ago
    > If you decide to like the stuff anyway you might as well make it at home Posted elsewhere as well but we used cold water and very short bursts for blending with our vitamix, and still get sliminess. Any ideas?
    - the_third_wave 4y ago
      Maybe try it at a lower speed? I only tried this a few times because my daughter prefers the stuff over real milk. The first experiment ended up slimy, after that I used short bursts at the low speed setting and got something resembling the packaged product.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    If I could be arsed, I absolutely would. As someone that prefers it without oil, I imagine it would be dirt cheap to make. Convenience is a killer though :)
    - the_third_wave 4y ago
      There is the convenience of not having to buy the stuff... A bag of oats goes a long way and keeps for a long time...
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Presumably, this in counter to 0% skim milk. If you've ever had whole milk (3-4%), it's like drinking cream in comparison to oat milk.
samwillis 4y ago
I've given up milk (although not cheese) and moved to oat milk. Initially it didn't "taste right" but after only a few weeks of sticking with it it's completely normal and I enjoy it on my breakfast cereal, in tea or coffee. I guarantee if you give it a few weeks it will become normal and enjoyable. It's like giving up sugar in tea or coffee, you soon find it normal and the old flavour slightly less desirable. If I'm making a smoothie I use soy for the protein, but find it a little tool "plant" for other stuff.
- recuter 4y ago
  https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60128075 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60128075 Plant-milk brand Oatly has been told not to repeat some of its adverts, after complaints to the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) were upheld. The ads, which used the slogan "Need help talking to dad about milk?", made unsubstantiated environmental claims, the ASA found. You are a very nice person to make such great choices for the environment I'm sure, just be aware it is all nonsense.
  - samwillis 4y ago
    Actually I gave up milk for mainly health and digestive reasons. Environmental and moral reasons very much second, but still there. I'm aware of the ongoing debate around the true environmental impact of milk alternatives to milk. My family were also dairy farmers until the late 90s when it became economically unviable in the UK without moving to an intensive barn kept model they refused to transition to. So I'm also aware of the economic impact on farmers over the last 30 years. Very fond memories of going to watch the cows being milked with my grandfather. Dietary choices are a personal thing, all the new options are only good for that (not withstanding misleading advertising).
    - recuter 4y ago
      > Dietary choices are a personal thing, all the new options are only good for that (not withstanding misleading advertising). I have some bad news about oat milk with regards to that as well. https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/is-oatly-healthy https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/is-oatly-healthy > A 12-ounce glass of oat milk (the amount in a medium latte) has about the same blood sugar impact as a 12-ounce can of Coke. Please do be careful. I am not saying Oatly is necessarily worse than milk for you or even bad at all but this was a boring long existing brand taken over by a savvy CEO that turned the marketing up to eleven (gearing up towards an ipo) -- we would all obviously like milk alternatives that are both healthier and have lower carbon footprints and that desire is being exploited to the hilt.
jacknews 4y ago
What about oat cream? Whipped cream for deserts? Cheese?
recuter 4y ago
Can you explain what imaginary environmental benefits your imaginary fake milk is supposed to have?
- slothtrop 4y ago
  Presumably it has to do with methane from cows. This is now beginning to be mitigated with seaweed feed. Otherwise, land-use for cows has been decreasing in the U.S. despite population increase. It has, however, increased in Brazil owing to soybean crops used for feed. That has been contentious because of encroachment into rainforest land, but it's not clear the scope of it really matters. The most cut and dry benefit to alternatives is far and away animal welfare. When it comes to just flavor profile I'm not surprised there would be some disruption (good use-case for ice cream, a junk food), but there's no real sub for the animal protein (if you care about that). And in terms of calcium content the products are just fortified, so you're paying a premium for what might as well be a supplement. I've tried a few yogurt alts that tasted alright, and the nutritional content seemed satisfactory fitting into my diet (though nothing for good for kefir yet). Of course I'm not keen to spend more on plants than I would for an animal product, and one wonders how green something can be when it includes coconut transported via cargo ships and highly refined ingredients.
  - kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
    Kudos for providing a useful answer to a question that doesn’t appear to be asked in good faith.
    - recuter 4y ago
      Why on earth is asking such an absolutely necessary question a bad faith thing :/ His reply is good, especially this bit: > Of course I'm not keen to spend more on plants than I would for an animal product, and one wonders how green something can be when it includes coconut transported via cargo ships and highly refined ingredients. Further down thread I discuss Oatly and their misleading marketing claims. A healthy amount of skepticism towards magical new solutions is very much in order. The methane thing is not true and has been debunked as I understand it. > The most cut and dry benefit to alternatives is far and away animal welfare. That is... very difficult to debate as it simply depends on where you are getting your milk from. It is certainly possible to produce milk with perfectly happy cows, if that is the main concern could just advocate and insist on that directly.
kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
After a very short time with soy milk I now prefer it, especially in my coffee. Try a few different brands. One brand I tried tasted very plant-y and wasn’t that great but the others have been darn good.
- RobinL 4y ago
  Agreed - I've managed to switch for breakfast cereal, but can't quite find something that works as well for coffee. Hazelnut was my favourite, but still not quite as good
  - kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
    Have you tried ‘Silk’? Both Original and Unsweet flavors are good in coffee, according to me.

by RobinL 4y ago

voisin 4y ago

Try switching to Oat milk for a month. At the end regular mill will taste less creamy and more watery than you remember and frankly will taste unappetizing. That was the challenge I was given and it 100% worked.

afavour 4y ago
I’ve found a great variation in oat milk quality. For the time being I’m an Oatly loyalist but the price is a notable premium over regular milk.
- Nursie 4y ago
  There’s a great variation in ingredients! I like the ones that are made out of oats, water, maybe a little salt. 90% of the oat milks on the market here in Aus, and 100% of the ones marked as “Barista Style” contain oil, usually sunflower. I don’t think it needs it. It’s delicious ‘straight’.
coffeebeqn 4y ago
Nutritionally it’s nowhere close.
- daneel_w 4y ago
  It isn't, but then again cow's milk and cheese shouldn't, and does not need to be, anyone's primary source of nutrition or caloric intake. The west's notion that children (and even adults) absolutely need milk every day "to grow up healthy" is a misconception.
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    Nutrition does not equal caloric intake. There's minerals (calcium being an important one) and vitamins (especially fat-soluble ones A-D-E-K) as well as thiamin, riboflavin and vitamin B12. It also contains quite a lot of energy in the form of sugars (lactose) as well as fats but as you already stated this is not the reason why most people use dairy products.
    - daneel_w 4y ago
      Hence "_or_ caloric intake". The reality of my statement remains. Dairy products are an exception in e.g. Asian children's diets. Most Asian countries view the west's level of dairy consumption as gorging.
      - the_third_wave 4y ago
        Dairy products have the big advantage of being available as long as you can keep a cow or sheep or goat or horse or camel alive which has made them staple foods in some places where food could get scarce because of cold, drought or a generally barren landscape. This is probably also what drove the evolution of a lactose-tolerant branch of Homo Sapiens in these regions as well as the growth of dairy-consuming cultures. The fact that Asian cultures tend to use fewer dairy products can be traced back to the fact that the conditions during the last glacial maximum [1] which gave rise to lactose tolerance mostly occurred in western and northern Europe. They also occurred in northern America but that continent seemingly did not have any humans on it yet. The mere fact that Asian cultures consider western dairy use to be extreme does not say that much, the same is said in many western cultures about some aspects of Asian food cultures. Fortunately we live in a time when people in east and west can partake in varied food cultures so we get to have cheese fondue one day, char siu the next and gravlax (cured salmon) the day after. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum#/media/File:Last_Glacial_Maximum_Vegetation_Map.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum#/media/Fi...
- voisin 4y ago
  Can you expand?
fulafel 4y ago
Plus you get beta-glucan which helps with cholesterol. See eg https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10749030/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10749030/ > Consumption of oat milk for 5 weeks lowers serum cholesterol and LDL cholesterol in free-living men with moderate hypercholesterolemia
the_third_wave 4y ago
Only if you can ignore the bitter aftertaste, the overly 'creamy' taste and consistency and the fact that it does taste of watered-down porridge. If you decide to like the stuff anyway you might as well make it at home instead of paying some greenwashing company far too much for watered-down porridge. Oat 'milk' is ~10% oats, ~3% fat (rape seed oil works fine with its neutral taste) and some salt for taste. You can make the stuff in a blender, just take some oats - breakfast type works fine - and blend it with the other ingredients. The main thing to watch out for is that you run the blender in short bursts since running it for a longer time produces too much heat in the mixture which leads to a slimy unappetising result. So, short bursts until the oats have been shredded to the desired (small) size. Use immediately or store for later use, you'll have to shake it just like you have to do with the commercial variety. Taste-wise there is not much difference, you can make it taste any way you want.
- voisin 4y ago
  > If you decide to like the stuff anyway you might as well make it at home Posted elsewhere as well but we used cold water and very short bursts for blending with our vitamix, and still get sliminess. Any ideas?
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    Maybe try it at a lower speed? I only tried this a few times because my daughter prefers the stuff over real milk. The first experiment ended up slimy, after that I used short bursts at the low speed setting and got something resembling the packaged product.
- Nursie 4y ago
  If I could be arsed, I absolutely would. As someone that prefers it without oil, I imagine it would be dirt cheap to make. Convenience is a killer though :)
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    There is the convenience of not having to buy the stuff... A bag of oats goes a long way and keeps for a long time...
slothtrop 4y ago
Presumably, this in counter to 0% skim milk. If you've ever had whole milk (3-4%), it's like drinking cream in comparison to oat milk.

samwillis 4y ago

I've given up milk (although not cheese) and moved to oat milk. Initially it didn't "taste right" but after only a few weeks of sticking with it it's completely normal and I enjoy it on my breakfast cereal, in tea or coffee. I guarantee if you give it a few weeks it will become normal and enjoyable. It's like giving up sugar in tea or coffee, you soon find it normal and the old flavour slightly less desirable. If I'm making a smoothie I use soy for the protein, but find it a little tool "plant" for other stuff.

recuter 4y ago
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60128075 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60128075 Plant-milk brand Oatly has been told not to repeat some of its adverts, after complaints to the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) were upheld. The ads, which used the slogan "Need help talking to dad about milk?", made unsubstantiated environmental claims, the ASA found. You are a very nice person to make such great choices for the environment I'm sure, just be aware it is all nonsense.
- samwillis 4y ago
  Actually I gave up milk for mainly health and digestive reasons. Environmental and moral reasons very much second, but still there. I'm aware of the ongoing debate around the true environmental impact of milk alternatives to milk. My family were also dairy farmers until the late 90s when it became economically unviable in the UK without moving to an intensive barn kept model they refused to transition to. So I'm also aware of the economic impact on farmers over the last 30 years. Very fond memories of going to watch the cows being milked with my grandfather. Dietary choices are a personal thing, all the new options are only good for that (not withstanding misleading advertising).
  - recuter 4y ago
    > Dietary choices are a personal thing, all the new options are only good for that (not withstanding misleading advertising). I have some bad news about oat milk with regards to that as well. https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/is-oatly-healthy https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/is-oatly-healthy > A 12-ounce glass of oat milk (the amount in a medium latte) has about the same blood sugar impact as a 12-ounce can of Coke. Please do be careful. I am not saying Oatly is necessarily worse than milk for you or even bad at all but this was a boring long existing brand taken over by a savvy CEO that turned the marketing up to eleven (gearing up towards an ipo) -- we would all obviously like milk alternatives that are both healthier and have lower carbon footprints and that desire is being exploited to the hilt.

jacknews 4y ago

What about oat cream? Whipped cream for deserts? Cheese?

recuter 4y ago

Can you explain what imaginary environmental benefits your imaginary fake milk is supposed to have?

slothtrop 4y ago
Presumably it has to do with methane from cows. This is now beginning to be mitigated with seaweed feed. Otherwise, land-use for cows has been decreasing in the U.S. despite population increase. It has, however, increased in Brazil owing to soybean crops used for feed. That has been contentious because of encroachment into rainforest land, but it's not clear the scope of it really matters. The most cut and dry benefit to alternatives is far and away animal welfare. When it comes to just flavor profile I'm not surprised there would be some disruption (good use-case for ice cream, a junk food), but there's no real sub for the animal protein (if you care about that). And in terms of calcium content the products are just fortified, so you're paying a premium for what might as well be a supplement. I've tried a few yogurt alts that tasted alright, and the nutritional content seemed satisfactory fitting into my diet (though nothing for good for kefir yet). Of course I'm not keen to spend more on plants than I would for an animal product, and one wonders how green something can be when it includes coconut transported via cargo ships and highly refined ingredients.
- kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
  Kudos for providing a useful answer to a question that doesn’t appear to be asked in good faith.
  - recuter 4y ago
    Why on earth is asking such an absolutely necessary question a bad faith thing :/ His reply is good, especially this bit: > Of course I'm not keen to spend more on plants than I would for an animal product, and one wonders how green something can be when it includes coconut transported via cargo ships and highly refined ingredients. Further down thread I discuss Oatly and their misleading marketing claims. A healthy amount of skepticism towards magical new solutions is very much in order. The methane thing is not true and has been debunked as I understand it. > The most cut and dry benefit to alternatives is far and away animal welfare. That is... very difficult to debate as it simply depends on where you are getting your milk from. It is certainly possible to produce milk with perfectly happy cows, if that is the main concern could just advocate and insist on that directly.

kwertyoowiyop 4y ago

After a very short time with soy milk I now prefer it, especially in my coffee. Try a few different brands. One brand I tried tasted very plant-y and wasn’t that great but the others have been darn good.

RobinL 4y ago
Agreed - I've managed to switch for breakfast cereal, but can't quite find something that works as well for coffee. Hazelnut was my favourite, but still not quite as good
- kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
  Have you tried ‘Silk’? Both Original and Unsweet flavors are good in coffee, according to me.