9 ms·

I feel like there would be a lot less push back against returning to the office, if offices still had actual individual offices. People have realised how unplea

I feel like there would be a lot less push back against returning to the office, if offices still had actual individual offices. People have realised how unpleasant working in open plan warehouses is.

apple4ever 4y ago
Absolutely agree. Going to the office really isn't that bad, if you have some decent privacy. The benefits of face-to-face communication are really great. But an open office takes so much privacy away and so much ability to concentrate. It's not worth it.
whateveracct 4y ago
That's gotta be a 2x real estate overhead for current headcount. If they did that, they'd probably rather just go remote.
- rightbyte 4y ago
  Is 2x really the case? I got a feeling the number is way lower, maybe 10% - 20% space savings for open plans, compared to if you make people share offices. Also the need for meeting rooms is lower with offices.
  - whateveracct 4y ago
    I think an office is 2 open office spaces easily
    - rightbyte 4y ago
      Sure, but if you wanna pack tight you can put two workers in a reasonably sized by old standards office room.
  - omnibrain 4y ago
    I worked in a company with 2-3 person offices. And I think 2 persons was the best. You could stick two people together that needed to cooperate a lot anyway, or a senior with a (very) junior. We practically never needed meeting rooms, except for team/project meetings, because whenerver 2 -4 people needed to discuss something they just met up in one of their offices.
- lrem 4y ago
  2-3 person offices require actually less space than open plan + meeting rooms. That's because you don't need separate rooms for small meetings. Only the couple big ones.
  - zo1 4y ago
    Is there some sort of definitive, or at least thorough analysis on this? With actual calculations and references to studies.
    - lrem 4y ago
      Possibly. I'm just comparing the experiences I had.
- DrBazza 4y ago
  I don't buy that at all. A reasonable sized cubicle has a wide desk and space to move you chair in and out of, plus a 'corridor' between all the cubicles. Change cubicle walls to office walls and have doors open into the existing corridor, and it's no different in size. Building codes might require some changes but I don't think it will be as much as 2x. The literature (Spolsky lists it one of his articles) implies that increased productivity of the existing employees in their own offices more than compensates for the slight decrease in the number of people you can pack into a fixed area.
ekianjo 4y ago
> if offices still had actual individual offices. There would still be the long commute to deal with. Not worth it
- suction 4y ago
  [dead]
- berkes 4y ago
  That's only for those that life far from the office. Which, if I'm to believe "Not Just Bikes" YouTube channel¹ is common in the US due to broken city planning. But really not in most of Europe. My cycle to an office is 20 minutes. And in the Netherlands that is considered a long cycling journey. Europe has it's car infested traffic jams too, don't get me wrong. But many of those stuck in those jams could choose to work close to home, or live close to offices. Houses and offices most often are intermixed in European (and often asian) cities. ¹https://youtube.com/@NotJustBikes https://youtube.com/@NotJustBikes
  - radarsat1 4y ago
    Come on now. Many people in the Netherlands live in one city and work in another. Cost of living prohibits most people from living right next to where they work. I do that 10 minute bike ride.. to the train station.. then I take the train 1h in each direction three times a week and consider myself lucky for not having to do it every day. The trains are packed.
    - baby 4y ago
      I think it's mostly a problem in big cities in Europe, whereas it's everywhere in the US
      - radarsat1 4y ago
        Don't get me wrong, I think the situation with public transport is vastly better in (western) Europe compared to North America, for a variety of reasons, a major one being that especially in NL almost every street has a double-laned bike path next to it. It really does make a difference to have that infrastructure in place, because people use it and this has major lifestyle and health benefits. But a claim that some majority of people can just bike 10 or 20 minutes to the office was just a bit wild considering my experience living here in NL and taking the train so often. Having said that, it is true that I can bike anywhere in the city I live in within half an hour, and I don't own a car because I can get anywhere by bike or train. The fact that I can do these things allows me to work in another city, instead of being bound to live in a certain restricted location, without even owning a car. But many people do drive, don't be confused. There are times when it would be really convenient to use a car, and I would be using a car sharing service if it weren't for the fact that my license is not valid here and I need to pass tests which is a long process.
Maro 4y ago
This is a very common and popular-on-the-Internet stance. I have worked in open office environments for ~10 years and I have not realized how unpleasant it is.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  I am one of the most introverted people around, but I also don't really see why open offices are supposed to be so bad. I've had a cubicle; it was not obviously better. Now, if the choice is office (any) vs remote, I see why offices are so bad.
  - dijit 4y ago
    Context matters. An open office with 6 people? Likely fine. Now put 2 of those people on calls all day. Remove any sound isolation, dividers, drop-ceiling (it looks cool to have the warehouse look with exposed air ducting!), and give them hardwood floors. Is it still pleasant? Now make it 60 people instead, and make the heavy callers 20 of those. -- Offices are contextual, I have had offices that are 8 people properly spaced out with a couple of sound baffles in the room and they were described as "open". I've also been thrown into a room where I was shoulder-to-shoulder with my nearest neighbours in a room that supposedly sat 45 people, with no drop ceiling, no dividers and hardwood floors... which was also described as "open".
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      You're describing things that just aren't problems. The sound of people walking on floors is not more disturbing than the sound of sirens going by outside. It's not disturbing at all; it's background noise.
      - dijit 4y ago
        This is so far away from my perspective that it's genuinely shocking. My gut reaction to your comment is outrage honestly. Footsteps approaching definitely distract me, 100%, every time, especially if they're distinct footsteps like heels or boots with a solid sole on hard wood. I don't suffer any known cognitive conditions, perhaps ADHD (but I am not diagnosed). If it is ADHD then that affects a DIAGNOSED 13% of humanity[0], and far more people are undiagnosed, though we get better every year at diagnosing it. So if I have ADHD and this is the cause then I am far from alone here. However, in Coffee Shop settings I can tune out the background, I have less anxiety from being disturbed, watched or expected to listen in. So, take from that what you will I guess. [0]: https://chadd.org/about-adhd/general-prevalence/ https://chadd.org/about-adhd/general-prevalence/
mstade 4y ago
I've worked 100% remote since 2015, so well before the pandemic. Last year, me and two friends who also work remotely decided to get an office together. It's a nice corner office in a good location, more or less equidistant to our individual homes. Our commute is 10-20 min on foot/bike depending on who you ask, and we've decorated the office with nice furniture, good sound etc. We're not always there at the same time, the three of us. If the weather is inclement or someone needs to care for their child we just don't show. We've got a texting group to let each other know, but not because anyone needs to know but because we chose to keep each other informed. It all feels very grown up and official, and it's very nice because it's ours. None of us has to ask a pointy haired boss for permission to buy a wine cooler or a new lamp, or whatever, we just do it. Sometimes we'll argue things but it's always chill. Like this week we've been going back and forth about where to place our new HomePod speakers. We just try it till we find a spot. It helps that we're three dudes who've been friends for a good 20 years at this point. We all like working remotely, but none of us like being cooped up at home all the time. The cost of the office space is comparable to any other office space, except for the furniture which is decidedly more high end. We're independent contractors so we've each sprung for whatever furniture we wanted to have. I feel like this is the ultimate compromise, it works super well for us. Not saying it works for everyone, but I could totally see a world in where employees pick whatever works for them, and employers foot the bill for reasonable expenses like the space, but maybe not for the fancy couch, I dunno. Anyway, my point with sharing this story is that as much as I love our office, I couldn't have my own room. I can't function in a completely private space. I know others can, and I respect that, but I just can't. But open plan doesn't work for me either, there's a point where it becomes too much. I feel like an office with 2-4 people who are respectful with one another is just right for me. And maybe that's it, maybe not everyone fits the same mold, so maybe the future of a good working space is choose your own adventure? Not that it's without its challenges, it took us some 6 months or so to find the right spot!
- DavidPeiffer 4y ago
  That sounds delightful! I started my current role 100% remote in 2020 but missed being around people. 3 days per week in the office in 2021 was awesome, and there were typically only a handful of people in the open office environment with low cube walls. In 2022 groups started coming back consistently, with Wednesdays being most loud. Noise canceling headphones are a must. I can hear everything from all around and it's overwhelming at times. In my prior role I shared a huge office with 2 other people, and later had a large office to myself with a big U shaped desk, small circle table and chairs, a whiteboard, and coworkers right across the hall. It was a great work environment.
pjmlp 4y ago
I hardly ever worked in proper offices, and I have been going at this for several decades. In Portugal from universities, startups and big companies, the computer people always get the open space, with offices reserved for upper management. Even if you get an office, it is a shared office in a kind of miniture open space. At very least for the last 40 years.
rektide 4y ago
We have a lot of people full remote now, so when those of us still in the area do go to the office, there are constant video chats going on. Being in office is like 2x as bad as it was.

apple4ever 4y ago

Absolutely agree. Going to the office really isn't that bad, if you have some decent privacy. The benefits of face-to-face communication are really great. But an open office takes so much privacy away and so much ability to concentrate. It's not worth it.

whateveracct 4y ago

That's gotta be a 2x real estate overhead for current headcount. If they did that, they'd probably rather just go remote.

rightbyte 4y ago
Is 2x really the case? I got a feeling the number is way lower, maybe 10% - 20% space savings for open plans, compared to if you make people share offices. Also the need for meeting rooms is lower with offices.
- whateveracct 4y ago
  I think an office is 2 open office spaces easily
  - rightbyte 4y ago
    Sure, but if you wanna pack tight you can put two workers in a reasonably sized by old standards office room.
- omnibrain 4y ago
  I worked in a company with 2-3 person offices. And I think 2 persons was the best. You could stick two people together that needed to cooperate a lot anyway, or a senior with a (very) junior. We practically never needed meeting rooms, except for team/project meetings, because whenerver 2 -4 people needed to discuss something they just met up in one of their offices.
lrem 4y ago
2-3 person offices require actually less space than open plan + meeting rooms. That's because you don't need separate rooms for small meetings. Only the couple big ones.
- zo1 4y ago
  Is there some sort of definitive, or at least thorough analysis on this? With actual calculations and references to studies.
  - lrem 4y ago
    Possibly. I'm just comparing the experiences I had.
DrBazza 4y ago
I don't buy that at all. A reasonable sized cubicle has a wide desk and space to move you chair in and out of, plus a 'corridor' between all the cubicles. Change cubicle walls to office walls and have doors open into the existing corridor, and it's no different in size. Building codes might require some changes but I don't think it will be as much as 2x. The literature (Spolsky lists it one of his articles) implies that increased productivity of the existing employees in their own offices more than compensates for the slight decrease in the number of people you can pack into a fixed area.

ekianjo 4y ago

> if offices still had actual individual offices. There would still be the long commute to deal with. Not worth it

suction 4y ago
[dead]
berkes 4y ago
That's only for those that life far from the office. Which, if I'm to believe "Not Just Bikes" YouTube channel¹ is common in the US due to broken city planning. But really not in most of Europe. My cycle to an office is 20 minutes. And in the Netherlands that is considered a long cycling journey. Europe has it's car infested traffic jams too, don't get me wrong. But many of those stuck in those jams could choose to work close to home, or live close to offices. Houses and offices most often are intermixed in European (and often asian) cities. ¹https://youtube.com/@NotJustBikes https://youtube.com/@NotJustBikes
- radarsat1 4y ago
  Come on now. Many people in the Netherlands live in one city and work in another. Cost of living prohibits most people from living right next to where they work. I do that 10 minute bike ride.. to the train station.. then I take the train 1h in each direction three times a week and consider myself lucky for not having to do it every day. The trains are packed.
  - baby 4y ago
    I think it's mostly a problem in big cities in Europe, whereas it's everywhere in the US
    - radarsat1 4y ago
      Don't get me wrong, I think the situation with public transport is vastly better in (western) Europe compared to North America, for a variety of reasons, a major one being that especially in NL almost every street has a double-laned bike path next to it. It really does make a difference to have that infrastructure in place, because people use it and this has major lifestyle and health benefits. But a claim that some majority of people can just bike 10 or 20 minutes to the office was just a bit wild considering my experience living here in NL and taking the train so often. Having said that, it is true that I can bike anywhere in the city I live in within half an hour, and I don't own a car because I can get anywhere by bike or train. The fact that I can do these things allows me to work in another city, instead of being bound to live in a certain restricted location, without even owning a car. But many people do drive, don't be confused. There are times when it would be really convenient to use a car, and I would be using a car sharing service if it weren't for the fact that my license is not valid here and I need to pass tests which is a long process.

Maro 4y ago

This is a very common and popular-on-the-Internet stance. I have worked in open office environments for ~10 years and I have not realized how unpleasant it is.

thaumasiotes 4y ago
I am one of the most introverted people around, but I also don't really see why open offices are supposed to be so bad. I've had a cubicle; it was not obviously better. Now, if the choice is office (any) vs remote, I see why offices are so bad.
- dijit 4y ago
  Context matters. An open office with 6 people? Likely fine. Now put 2 of those people on calls all day. Remove any sound isolation, dividers, drop-ceiling (it looks cool to have the warehouse look with exposed air ducting!), and give them hardwood floors. Is it still pleasant? Now make it 60 people instead, and make the heavy callers 20 of those. -- Offices are contextual, I have had offices that are 8 people properly spaced out with a couple of sound baffles in the room and they were described as "open". I've also been thrown into a room where I was shoulder-to-shoulder with my nearest neighbours in a room that supposedly sat 45 people, with no drop ceiling, no dividers and hardwood floors... which was also described as "open".
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    You're describing things that just aren't problems. The sound of people walking on floors is not more disturbing than the sound of sirens going by outside. It's not disturbing at all; it's background noise.
    - dijit 4y ago
      This is so far away from my perspective that it's genuinely shocking. My gut reaction to your comment is outrage honestly. Footsteps approaching definitely distract me, 100%, every time, especially if they're distinct footsteps like heels or boots with a solid sole on hard wood. I don't suffer any known cognitive conditions, perhaps ADHD (but I am not diagnosed). If it is ADHD then that affects a DIAGNOSED 13% of humanity[0], and far more people are undiagnosed, though we get better every year at diagnosing it. So if I have ADHD and this is the cause then I am far from alone here. However, in Coffee Shop settings I can tune out the background, I have less anxiety from being disturbed, watched or expected to listen in. So, take from that what you will I guess. [0]: https://chadd.org/about-adhd/general-prevalence/ https://chadd.org/about-adhd/general-prevalence/

mstade 4y ago

I've worked 100% remote since 2015, so well before the pandemic. Last year, me and two friends who also work remotely decided to get an office together. It's a nice corner office in a good location, more or less equidistant to our individual homes. Our commute is 10-20 min on foot/bike depending on who you ask, and we've decorated the office with nice furniture, good sound etc. We're not always there at the same time, the three of us. If the weather is inclement or someone needs to care for their child we just don't show. We've got a texting group to let each other know, but not because anyone needs to know but because we chose to keep each other informed. It all feels very grown up and official, and it's very nice because it's ours. None of us has to ask a pointy haired boss for permission to buy a wine cooler or a new lamp, or whatever, we just do it. Sometimes we'll argue things but it's always chill. Like this week we've been going back and forth about where to place our new HomePod speakers. We just try it till we find a spot. It helps that we're three dudes who've been friends for a good 20 years at this point. We all like working remotely, but none of us like being cooped up at home all the time. The cost of the office space is comparable to any other office space, except for the furniture which is decidedly more high end. We're independent contractors so we've each sprung for whatever furniture we wanted to have. I feel like this is the ultimate compromise, it works super well for us. Not saying it works for everyone, but I could totally see a world in where employees pick whatever works for them, and employers foot the bill for reasonable expenses like the space, but maybe not for the fancy couch, I dunno. Anyway, my point with sharing this story is that as much as I love our office, I couldn't have my own room. I can't function in a completely private space. I know others can, and I respect that, but I just can't. But open plan doesn't work for me either, there's a point where it becomes too much. I feel like an office with 2-4 people who are respectful with one another is just right for me. And maybe that's it, maybe not everyone fits the same mold, so maybe the future of a good working space is choose your own adventure? Not that it's without its challenges, it took us some 6 months or so to find the right spot!

DavidPeiffer 4y ago
That sounds delightful! I started my current role 100% remote in 2020 but missed being around people. 3 days per week in the office in 2021 was awesome, and there were typically only a handful of people in the open office environment with low cube walls. In 2022 groups started coming back consistently, with Wednesdays being most loud. Noise canceling headphones are a must. I can hear everything from all around and it's overwhelming at times. In my prior role I shared a huge office with 2 other people, and later had a large office to myself with a big U shaped desk, small circle table and chairs, a whiteboard, and coworkers right across the hall. It was a great work environment.

pjmlp 4y ago

I hardly ever worked in proper offices, and I have been going at this for several decades. In Portugal from universities, startups and big companies, the computer people always get the open space, with offices reserved for upper management. Even if you get an office, it is a shared office in a kind of miniture open space. At very least for the last 40 years.

rektide 4y ago

We have a lot of people full remote now, so when those of us still in the area do go to the office, there are constant video chats going on. Being in office is like 2x as bad as it was.