7 ms·

It is not magic, it is back-end development. Calling it magic is like calling server-less architecture magic. Sit down and carefully consider what is the diffe

It is not magic, it is back-end development. Calling it magic is like calling server-less architecture magic. Sit down and carefully consider what is the difference between front-end and back-end development, and why that distinction exists in the first place.

illiarian 4y ago
What he is doing was literally called doing frontend until SPAs came along. PHP and RoR was frontend.
- orange8 4y ago
  In your own words, please define what "front-end development" means to you when it comes to web development.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    Anything that creates something directly user-facing on the web. With the rise of SPAs I've seen "traditional frontend" rebranded as "backend of the frontend" which is an awkward term to say the least.
    - orange8 4y ago
      Okay. I'll explain it to you. It basically comes down to a server-client architecture. The server (db, server side code) is the backend, that the user never gets to see. The client (basically the browser - js, html and css) is what the user get's to see, not just through the interface, but by selecting "view source". So PHP and Rails are back-end languages. You never get to see the code and logic that generated the page because it is "at the back". Golang, which the poster mentioned, is also a back-end language. So if the core of your apps logic is at the back-end (server), what you are practicing is back-end dev. If the core is in the front (e.g. SPAs) then it's front-end dev. Sometimes the complexity can be split 50-50 between the back and front. But if your web-application just uses html, css and a sprinkling of JS, then it is back-end driven. Another category is a website, which does not really have any complexity whether at the back or front. So to correct your statement, PHP and RoR have never, at any point in time been considered front-end tech. If it is not html, css and js (including complile to js languages like ts), then it is not front-end dev.
      - illiarian 4y ago
        > Okay. I'll explain it to you. > PHP and RoR have never, at any point in time been considered front-end tech. Okay, let me explain something to you, as a person who has been in this biz for 23 years. What you're talking about is client-side vs. server-side which doesn't have a 1-to-1 correspondence with frontend vs. backend. Frontend has always been about something user-facing. Backend has always been about something that is non-user-facing. Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. Even though with the exception of direct DOM manipulation there are very few conceptual differences between generating UI on the client and generating the UI via PHP/RoR.
        orange8 4y ago
        > Okay, let me explain something to you, as a person who has been in this biz for 23 years. Since you've brought up your experience, what exactly does "in this biz" mean exactly? What was your job title 20 years ago? 15 years ago? 10 years ago? 5 years ago? Now? If you've really been in the industry that long, you should have noticed that the job titles also evolve. Back when all the complexity was in the server, and JS was just a baby toy language and not the beast its evolved into today, the job titles were very different than they are now. > What you're talking about id client-side vs. server-side which doesn't have a 1-to-1 correspondence with frontend vs. backend. Just google "front-end" dev, or even use wikipedia [1]. The client-server architecture even pre-dates the web, but when it comes to web developement, the front end is css, html and js. Nothing more, nothing less. If you do not agree, then go edit that wikipedia page. > Frontend has always been about something user-facing. Backend has always been about something that is non-user-facing. What do you mean by "user facing"? Can a user view the source code of a PHP generated page? How is PHP user facing? Can you give me an example of a web tech that is "non-user-facing"? > Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. Even though with the exception of direct DOM manipulation there are very few conceptual differences between generating UI on the client and generating the UI via PHP/RoR. The term client-side dev is never used in the industry. Never. What we use is front-end developer. Go to any job ad website[2] and look for the term "client side dev", you wont find it. What you will find is "front-end dev". Then look through all the front-end dev job postings, and show me one, even one that lists PHP, RoR or Golang as a job requirement. Here are some front-end roles [3][4]. Notice how none of them mention PHP, Golang or RoR? Then here are some back-end roles [5][6], notice how there is no mention of js, html or css? Case closed. Have a nice day. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-end_web_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-end_web_development [2] https://www.ycombinator.com/jobs https://www.ycombinator.com/jobs [3] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/golinks/jobs/k3k6PSz-frontend-engineer-entry-level https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/golinks/jobs/k3k6PSz-f... [4] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/tractian/jobs/P6ri7Wt-front-end-software-engineer-pl-sr https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/tractian/jobs/P6ri7Wt-... [5] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/svix/jobs/7DMKXxB-rust-backend-engineer https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/svix/jobs/7DMKXxB-rust... [6] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safebeat/jobs/2mJ95eL-backend-engineer https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safebeat/jobs/2mJ95eL-...
orange8 4y ago
LOL! Looks like some people are silently getting butt-hurt over a simple challenge asking them to differentiate between front-end and back-end dev. If front-end dev is not your cup of tea, that's ok. Just be honest with yourself about it. Using only html, css and a sprinkling of js is not front-end dev, it is web-design.

illiarian 4y ago

What he is doing was literally called doing frontend until SPAs came along. PHP and RoR was frontend.

orange8 4y ago
In your own words, please define what "front-end development" means to you when it comes to web development.
- illiarian 4y ago
  Anything that creates something directly user-facing on the web. With the rise of SPAs I've seen "traditional frontend" rebranded as "backend of the frontend" which is an awkward term to say the least.
  - orange8 4y ago
    Okay. I'll explain it to you. It basically comes down to a server-client architecture. The server (db, server side code) is the backend, that the user never gets to see. The client (basically the browser - js, html and css) is what the user get's to see, not just through the interface, but by selecting "view source". So PHP and Rails are back-end languages. You never get to see the code and logic that generated the page because it is "at the back". Golang, which the poster mentioned, is also a back-end language. So if the core of your apps logic is at the back-end (server), what you are practicing is back-end dev. If the core is in the front (e.g. SPAs) then it's front-end dev. Sometimes the complexity can be split 50-50 between the back and front. But if your web-application just uses html, css and a sprinkling of JS, then it is back-end driven. Another category is a website, which does not really have any complexity whether at the back or front. So to correct your statement, PHP and RoR have never, at any point in time been considered front-end tech. If it is not html, css and js (including complile to js languages like ts), then it is not front-end dev.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > Okay. I'll explain it to you. > PHP and RoR have never, at any point in time been considered front-end tech. Okay, let me explain something to you, as a person who has been in this biz for 23 years. What you're talking about is client-side vs. server-side which doesn't have a 1-to-1 correspondence with frontend vs. backend. Frontend has always been about something user-facing. Backend has always been about something that is non-user-facing. Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. Even though with the exception of direct DOM manipulation there are very few conceptual differences between generating UI on the client and generating the UI via PHP/RoR.
      - orange8 4y ago
        > Okay, let me explain something to you, as a person who has been in this biz for 23 years. Since you've brought up your experience, what exactly does "in this biz" mean exactly? What was your job title 20 years ago? 15 years ago? 10 years ago? 5 years ago? Now? If you've really been in the industry that long, you should have noticed that the job titles also evolve. Back when all the complexity was in the server, and JS was just a baby toy language and not the beast its evolved into today, the job titles were very different than they are now. > What you're talking about id client-side vs. server-side which doesn't have a 1-to-1 correspondence with frontend vs. backend. Just google "front-end" dev, or even use wikipedia [1]. The client-server architecture even pre-dates the web, but when it comes to web developement, the front end is css, html and js. Nothing more, nothing less. If you do not agree, then go edit that wikipedia page. > Frontend has always been about something user-facing. Backend has always been about something that is non-user-facing. What do you mean by "user facing"? Can a user view the source code of a PHP generated page? How is PHP user facing? Can you give me an example of a web tech that is "non-user-facing"? > Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. Even though with the exception of direct DOM manipulation there are very few conceptual differences between generating UI on the client and generating the UI via PHP/RoR. The term client-side dev is never used in the industry. Never. What we use is front-end developer. Go to any job ad website[2] and look for the term "client side dev", you wont find it. What you will find is "front-end dev". Then look through all the front-end dev job postings, and show me one, even one that lists PHP, RoR or Golang as a job requirement. Here are some front-end roles [3][4]. Notice how none of them mention PHP, Golang or RoR? Then here are some back-end roles [5][6], notice how there is no mention of js, html or css? Case closed. Have a nice day. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-end_web_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-end_web_development [2] https://www.ycombinator.com/jobs https://www.ycombinator.com/jobs [3] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/golinks/jobs/k3k6PSz-frontend-engineer-entry-level https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/golinks/jobs/k3k6PSz-f... [4] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/tractian/jobs/P6ri7Wt-front-end-software-engineer-pl-sr https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/tractian/jobs/P6ri7Wt-... [5] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/svix/jobs/7DMKXxB-rust-backend-engineer https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/svix/jobs/7DMKXxB-rust... [6] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safebeat/jobs/2mJ95eL-backend-engineer https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safebeat/jobs/2mJ95eL-...

orange8 4y ago

LOL! Looks like some people are silently getting butt-hurt over a simple challenge asking them to differentiate between front-end and back-end dev. If front-end dev is not your cup of tea, that's ok. Just be honest with yourself about it. Using only html, css and a sprinkling of js is not front-end dev, it is web-design.