6 ms·

> If the European companies don't wake up to this, they will gradually see a brain drain I think the EU has taken a pretty consistent stance in wanting to avoi

by pigsty 4y ago

> If the European companies don't wake up to this, they will gradually see a brain drain I think the EU has taken a pretty consistent stance in wanting to avoid America’s massive wealth divide. It’s nice to know that you can be on the benefitting side of such a divide, but it comes with social downsides. America’s rent, homeless, and crime problems are far, far beyond most places in Europe and a big factor in this is people with insane wealth happily paying insane amounts for formerly cheap properties.

wslh 4y ago
And you should add tolerating a bad transport infrastructure where infinite car traffic is normal.
- tejinderss 4y ago
  Come to Ireland, non existing public transport and road infrastructure.
  - slickrick216 4y ago
    And (mostly) low salaries with high taxes.
  - wslh 4y ago
    I am looking to Spain. Know Ireland, not my place to live. Yes, we should specify the city or country involved. Beyond the traffic I have a good experience traveling by train in Ireland and UK.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    Still better public transport than 99% of the US
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Don't know where you live but Europe's wealth divide is bigger than America's. We just need to make the distinction between income inequality and wealth inequality which are completely different things. Urban property prices for Europeans are far less approachable on our wages than they are for Americans on their wages. Munich has the same square foot/meter prices as SF but at a third of the wages. I assume it's similar in Paris and London. When I was working in Germany for an engineering company, all the guys in the Dallas-FW office had bought big houses in the suburbs (yeah, car dependence though) while everyone in the Munich office was still renting (and not living centrally). Europe had less income inequality, but much higher wealth inequality thanks to decades/centuries of accumulated old-money that keeps growing, especially in real-estate assets. Europe protects you from becoming homeless but it's near impossible to accumulate wealth if you start from the bottom, while in the US you can easily become wealthy from the bottom if you're savvy and healthy but you can also easily become homeless if you're not.
- rcarmo 4y ago
  If you want overinflated real estate prices (relative to local wages/affordability), try Lisbon.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Yeah, that too, although correct me if I'm wrong, but to me, Lisbon's housing issues seem to be self inflicted by prioritizing Airbnbs and housing for tourists and rich crypto-bro nomads at the expense of its own citizens. Could probably be fixed if the Portuguese would vote right, no? Meaning it's more of a political issue than an economical one.
    - rcarmo 4y ago
      I wrote a fairly long comment the other day in another thread that explains how the visas and AirBnBs are just the icing on the cake. It's very much the legacy of decades of neglect from property owners and lobbying from the building industry, compounded by bad government regulation.
    - margorczynski 4y ago
      Here in Poland there's a lot of property not rented as the law is such that if someone stops paying it'll take you years to (maybe) throw him out. And during all that time you need to pay the bills for him because if he gets cut off from e.g. electricity for not paying you face criminal charges. I would assume the situation is similar in many places across Europe.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        That sounds like the worst. In Austria the tenant is responsible to sign the contracts to the utilities under his own name so if he doesn't pay his bills and gets cut off it's his own problem. Also some landlords check your payslips to make sure you have a stable income so that evictions are less likely to be needed.
_8j50 4y ago
That's nice but corporate greed and exec compensation is the cause of the US wealth divide not tech workers getting paid market value.
throw0101c 4y ago
> I think the EU has taken a pretty consistent stance in wanting to avoid America’s massive wealth divide. Then raise the tax rates at higher incomes. People can be 'psychologically satisfied' with having a large number given to them during salary negotiations for their gross salary, but then once income is greater than (say) 200'000, a larger and larger portion is taken at higher tax brackets. And a refresher on how marginal tax brackets work: * https://www.vox.com/2019/1/18/18187056/tax-bracket-marginal-video https://www.vox.com/2019/1/18/18187056/tax-bracket-marginal-...
- coldtea 4y ago
  >Then raise the tax rates at higher incomes. Pay and tax are not just some metrics to change to accomondate status psychology reasons...
dindobre 4y ago
I beg to differ. I am western European, I was born the poorest of my classmates, friends, colleagues, whatever. I'm also the one, among my circle, earning way more than everybody else. Despite that, my net worth is and will always be on the lower end of said circle. Most if not all of my peers have parents that own their house, some of them own activities which they've already basically partially passed on their children etc. I know it sounds bitter but I feel like I was born to work while most of my peers were born into rent-seeking mode. Due to the high taxation, I've an hard cap on what I can make with my life unless I get insanely lucky, the combination of high taxation and high rent is an enormous pressure, my life would be totally different if I had started with my own home. Maybe there are statistics out there about this, but it feels like that having your own home early (e.g. through the help of parents) is more important than whatever career or academic achievement (PHD, etc.) you go through. I don't think it's the same in the USA.
- klipklop 4y ago
  It’s not. I know people that that had nothing, moved to the US and now own multiple homes now after doing well in tech. Life in the US is not easy, but it seems like upward mobility is still easier than most of Europe. Sure it’s great in Europe if your family has owned land since William I roamed the earth though.
RestlessMind 4y ago
> are far, far beyond most places in Europe Have you been to Europe? > rent I see frequent stories on HN about people not able to afford homes in Lisbon, London or Paris. Trivial to dig up rent stats and compare against median income. > homeless I was in Frankfurt in summer. Entire 3x3 block area next to the main train station reminded me of Tenderloin in SF. Homeless people, urine and poop, needles, stench.. you got it all. And this is apparently one of the richest city in the strongest economy in Europe. Let's not talk about poor parts of Moldova, Romania or Belarus.

by pigsty 4y ago

wslh 4y ago

And you should add tolerating a bad transport infrastructure where infinite car traffic is normal.

tejinderss 4y ago
Come to Ireland, non existing public transport and road infrastructure.
- slickrick216 4y ago
  And (mostly) low salaries with high taxes.
- wslh 4y ago
  I am looking to Spain. Know Ireland, not my place to live. Yes, we should specify the city or country involved. Beyond the traffic I have a good experience traveling by train in Ireland and UK.
- coldtea 4y ago
  Still better public transport than 99% of the US

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

Don't know where you live but Europe's wealth divide is bigger than America's. We just need to make the distinction between income inequality and wealth inequality which are completely different things. Urban property prices for Europeans are far less approachable on our wages than they are for Americans on their wages. Munich has the same square foot/meter prices as SF but at a third of the wages. I assume it's similar in Paris and London. When I was working in Germany for an engineering company, all the guys in the Dallas-FW office had bought big houses in the suburbs (yeah, car dependence though) while everyone in the Munich office was still renting (and not living centrally). Europe had less income inequality, but much higher wealth inequality thanks to decades/centuries of accumulated old-money that keeps growing, especially in real-estate assets. Europe protects you from becoming homeless but it's near impossible to accumulate wealth if you start from the bottom, while in the US you can easily become wealthy from the bottom if you're savvy and healthy but you can also easily become homeless if you're not.

rcarmo 4y ago
If you want overinflated real estate prices (relative to local wages/affordability), try Lisbon.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Yeah, that too, although correct me if I'm wrong, but to me, Lisbon's housing issues seem to be self inflicted by prioritizing Airbnbs and housing for tourists and rich crypto-bro nomads at the expense of its own citizens. Could probably be fixed if the Portuguese would vote right, no? Meaning it's more of a political issue than an economical one.
  - rcarmo 4y ago
    I wrote a fairly long comment the other day in another thread that explains how the visas and AirBnBs are just the icing on the cake. It's very much the legacy of decades of neglect from property owners and lobbying from the building industry, compounded by bad government regulation.
  - margorczynski 4y ago
    Here in Poland there's a lot of property not rented as the law is such that if someone stops paying it'll take you years to (maybe) throw him out. And during all that time you need to pay the bills for him because if he gets cut off from e.g. electricity for not paying you face criminal charges. I would assume the situation is similar in many places across Europe.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      That sounds like the worst. In Austria the tenant is responsible to sign the contracts to the utilities under his own name so if he doesn't pay his bills and gets cut off it's his own problem. Also some landlords check your payslips to make sure you have a stable income so that evictions are less likely to be needed.

_8j50 4y ago

That's nice but corporate greed and exec compensation is the cause of the US wealth divide not tech workers getting paid market value.

throw0101c 4y ago

> I think the EU has taken a pretty consistent stance in wanting to avoid America’s massive wealth divide. Then raise the tax rates at higher incomes. People can be 'psychologically satisfied' with having a large number given to them during salary negotiations for their gross salary, but then once income is greater than (say) 200'000, a larger and larger portion is taken at higher tax brackets. And a refresher on how marginal tax brackets work: * https://www.vox.com/2019/1/18/18187056/tax-bracket-marginal-video https://www.vox.com/2019/1/18/18187056/tax-bracket-marginal-...

coldtea 4y ago
>Then raise the tax rates at higher incomes. Pay and tax are not just some metrics to change to accomondate status psychology reasons...

dindobre 4y ago

I beg to differ. I am western European, I was born the poorest of my classmates, friends, colleagues, whatever. I'm also the one, among my circle, earning way more than everybody else. Despite that, my net worth is and will always be on the lower end of said circle. Most if not all of my peers have parents that own their house, some of them own activities which they've already basically partially passed on their children etc. I know it sounds bitter but I feel like I was born to work while most of my peers were born into rent-seeking mode. Due to the high taxation, I've an hard cap on what I can make with my life unless I get insanely lucky, the combination of high taxation and high rent is an enormous pressure, my life would be totally different if I had started with my own home. Maybe there are statistics out there about this, but it feels like that having your own home early (e.g. through the help of parents) is more important than whatever career or academic achievement (PHD, etc.) you go through. I don't think it's the same in the USA.

klipklop 4y ago
It’s not. I know people that that had nothing, moved to the US and now own multiple homes now after doing well in tech. Life in the US is not easy, but it seems like upward mobility is still easier than most of Europe. Sure it’s great in Europe if your family has owned land since William I roamed the earth though.

RestlessMind 4y ago

> are far, far beyond most places in Europe Have you been to Europe? > rent I see frequent stories on HN about people not able to afford homes in Lisbon, London or Paris. Trivial to dig up rent stats and compare against median income. > homeless I was in Frankfurt in summer. Entire 3x3 block area next to the main train station reminded me of Tenderloin in SF. Homeless people, urine and poop, needles, stench.. you got it all. And this is apparently one of the richest city in the strongest economy in Europe. Let's not talk about poor parts of Moldova, Romania or Belarus.