6 ms·

Infinite Games

76 points by kiyanwang 4y ago

paulpauper 4y ago
The most dangerous story that’s ever been told is happiness lies just beyond achievement. And you can spend your whole life following that story just to find that there really wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Hmm...but the evidence suggests happiness increases with income, even above $500k/year for some people. Maybe not a pot of gold, but having more money can make life easier anyway.
- thunderbong 4y ago
  IMHO, it's not happiness that increases but the general life stress that decreases with increasing income. Probably, most people conflate that with happiness?
  - pibechorro 4y ago
    Ding ding
  - selestify 4y ago
    How does having less stress not make you happier? Or if not “happy,” then what other word is there to describe this axis on which there was positive movement?
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
      Comfort. In the context we're using the word, "satisfaction" might be a good replacement for "happiness". It isn't about pleasure, or even feeling good necessarily, but contentment with your place in the world.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  Money can't buy happiness but it's really good at fixing problems. If your unhappiness is caused by your car being broken down, money can buy that. Not having money to fix your basic life problems with is probably one of the biggest sources of unhappiness in the world.
  - weego 4y ago
    Yeah I think the common trope needs an update. Money doesn't buy happiness, it removes a lot of unhappiness
    - NKosmatos 4y ago
      I would further refine it with this, money buys you free/spare time. If you have enough money, you can stop ironing your shirts, cleaning the house, doing chores and all the other stuff that drain our “free” time. Generally speaking, a third of our time goes to work, another third to sleep and the remaining third is our life. We need to make the work part interesting, engaging, joyful and something we look forward to so that it doesn’t make us unhappy. We can try and reduce a little bit the sleep part to gain time, but for sure we need to handle more efficiently the last part and maximize it. This is where most of the happiness will come from.
    - jschveibinz 4y ago
      I agree, and I think this is the basis for a nice essay. Having money provides a safety net: insurance against serious life disruption. For example: Car broke down? No problem, just drive the other car or take Uber for a week. Rent goes up? No problem, just buy less clothing each month. Very ill? No problem, just pay for immediate health care.
  - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    It's more comfortable to cry in a house you own. Always remember that the phrase "money doesn't buy you happiness" is a means to make the proletariat accept their lot.
  - dkersten 4y ago
    It’s very good at fixing problems, but I think even beyond that, money can be used in ways that increase happiness. Some things off the top of my head that money could buy that would increase my happiness or decrease my unhappiness due to things like stress: Beyond simply fixing problems, it also allows you to just not have to think about them at all, which removes stress. Eg if you have enough money, then bills just aren’t things that ever need to take up time or space in your mind. Being able to choose where to live based solely on what would make me happy or being close to the people I care about, without having to make suboptimal decisions based on cost. Not having to work would free up a lot of time to spend with loved ones, on hobbies or activities that bring meaning and joy to my life, or on travelling and seeing wonderful things or places and meeting new people. Even if I want to work, I could at least choose what I want to work on based on what gives me joy and meaning rather than based on financial need. Money allows you to do these things for others: reduce their stresses and financial worries. Doing things for others is usually rewarding. So beyond removing unhappiness caused by basic life problems, I think that money really can meaningfully improve your level of happiness. Yes, you’d eventually hit a point where more money doesn’t improve things, but that number is far higher than the $75k figure usually quoted because $75k isn’t even close enough to quit my job, live closer to my friends, Tavel the world and work on my hobbies and personal projects.
- archgoon 4y ago
  [dead]
- ehnto 4y ago
  I don't think that bit is about income, rather about chasing finite goals to find happiness on the other side. It's certainly a trope that many achievements can leave an empty feeling in the space that chasing that dream used to occupy. I think the warning here is not to make your life unbearable to chase happiness after some arbitrary achievement. But I think the advice I appreciate more is just to make sure you're also enjoying the journey, and that you diversify your streams of contentment. It's nice to have stuff that brings you joy while you search for something new after achieving something you had been focussing on.
- pil0u 4y ago
  Last time I checked, Nobel Prize Daniel Kahneman published a study[0] in 2010 on 450'000 Americans concluding that people's emotional well-being increases with log(income) but stops increasing at around $75k/year. Has this changed this dramatically during the past decade? [0] https://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/deaton_kahneman_high_income_improves_evaluation_August2010.pdf https://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/deaton_kahneman_...
  - skitter 4y ago
    There's a recent paper¹ claiming Kahneman & Deaton's study was flawed and happiness does increase above $75k/year. ¹ https://www.pnas.org/doi/epdf/10.1073/pnas.2208661120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/epdf/10.1073/pnas.2208661120
  - slindsey 4y ago
    Someone else pointed out the recent paper, but I'll also point out that $75k per year in the US puts you in the 1% of global population for salary. So it's not like $75k is attainable for most people. https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=75000&countryCode=USA&household%5Badults%5D=1&household%5Bchildren%5D=0 https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=...
    - cableshaft 4y ago
      Adjusting for inflation, (since that number was from a paper published in 2010), that number is now $103k.
  - kqr 4y ago
    Huh, this is really interesting! I knew the normative properties of log wealth, but the connection between well-being and log income surprises me. What's the connection between wealth and income? Linear or something else?
  - cableshaft 4y ago
    Someone else mentioned the potential flaws with the study, but even assuming the study is correct, people keep sharing the $75k number (in 2010) without adjusting it for inflation. Adjusting it for inflation[1], $75k in 2010 would be $103k today. [1] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
- flippinburgers 4y ago
  Anytime someone blathers "money doesn't equal happiness" advice, I ask them to offload at least some of their monthly paycheck into my wallet since it obviously isn't important to them. Nobody has ever taken me up on the offer.
thecyber 4y ago
[dead]
CM30 4y ago
There are some really good points here, especially for those trying to chase fame and fortune as a creator or artist. Like this: > You return from the peak and think, “Damn. I need that rush again. I need to climb another mountain.” But here’s the thing about that next mountain: it has to be greater than the previous one. This is basically what it's like being a popular YouTuber or Twitch streamer. You reach 1k subs, you want 10k. You reach 10k, you want 100k. Reach 100k, want a million. Etc. You become obsessed with numbers, driven by the initial feeling of joy as you reach each one. You become more and more obsessed with fame and fortune, and likely end up feeling just as hollow as you did at the start. All while risking serious burnout, and driving away the people around you. Becoming rich will certainly make things easier and help happinness wise, but if you're too obsessed with achievements and fortune, you probably won't get to enjoy it.
- tennisflyi 4y ago
  Not sure I agree. 1k > 10k > 100k pipeline is like tunnel vision induced by infinite growth/capitalism. I'm bootstrapping a small and intimate business right now and my ultimate goal is to just maintain $20k/month with 1k true followers regardless of any/all (economic) environments.
- minton 4y ago
  Kevin Hart describes this perfectly as the “Can’t Go Backwards” monster in his book Monsters and How to Tame Them[0]. Definitely worth a listen. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/62691779 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/62691779
joshmarinacci 4y ago
Beyond a certain point money can't buy happiness, but it can buy you time.
mark_l_watson 4y ago
This article is similar to Sinek’s book The Infinite Game, which I enjoyed a lot. Off topic and personal: I have enjoyed the tech industry for almost 50 years, but being in my 70s I just don’t have the energy to do everything I want to do. I still play the Infinite Game though as a 40 year AI practitioner by spending 2 hours a week working as an advisor to an AI startup, by closely following deep learning and specifically LLMs, spending about 1 hour a day trying papers + code, and about 2 hours a day writing whatever my “new book project” is. I also allow myself 30 minutes a day, usually during my morning coffee, to scan HN, Twitter, TLDR AI, etc., where I write down things I may want to look at in depth that day. (I wrote about this process yesterday http://mark-watson.blogspot.com/2023/03/time-and-attention-fragmentation-in-our.html http://mark-watson.blogspot.com/2023/03/time-and-attention-f...). Anyway, I still feel in the game, I limit tech/gentleman scientist research/coding/writing to about 4 hours a day - that leaves plenty of time for friends, family, and reading. I really think that some people try to achieve too much in life. Lower expectations and be happier.

76 points by kiyanwang 4y ago

The most dangerous story that’s ever been told is happiness lies just beyond achievement. And you can spend your whole life following that story just to find that there really wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Hmm...but the evidence suggests happiness increases with income, even above $500k/year for some people. Maybe not a pot of gold, but having more money can make life easier anyway.

thunderbong 4y ago
IMHO, it's not happiness that increases but the general life stress that decreases with increasing income. Probably, most people conflate that with happiness?
- pibechorro 4y ago
  Ding ding
- selestify 4y ago
  How does having less stress not make you happier? Or if not “happy,” then what other word is there to describe this axis on which there was positive movement?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    Comfort. In the context we're using the word, "satisfaction" might be a good replacement for "happiness". It isn't about pleasure, or even feeling good necessarily, but contentment with your place in the world.
bluefirebrand 4y ago
Money can't buy happiness but it's really good at fixing problems. If your unhappiness is caused by your car being broken down, money can buy that. Not having money to fix your basic life problems with is probably one of the biggest sources of unhappiness in the world.
- weego 4y ago
  Yeah I think the common trope needs an update. Money doesn't buy happiness, it removes a lot of unhappiness
  - NKosmatos 4y ago
    I would further refine it with this, money buys you free/spare time. If you have enough money, you can stop ironing your shirts, cleaning the house, doing chores and all the other stuff that drain our “free” time. Generally speaking, a third of our time goes to work, another third to sleep and the remaining third is our life. We need to make the work part interesting, engaging, joyful and something we look forward to so that it doesn’t make us unhappy. We can try and reduce a little bit the sleep part to gain time, but for sure we need to handle more efficiently the last part and maximize it. This is where most of the happiness will come from.
  - jschveibinz 4y ago
    I agree, and I think this is the basis for a nice essay. Having money provides a safety net: insurance against serious life disruption. For example: Car broke down? No problem, just drive the other car or take Uber for a week. Rent goes up? No problem, just buy less clothing each month. Very ill? No problem, just pay for immediate health care.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  It's more comfortable to cry in a house you own. Always remember that the phrase "money doesn't buy you happiness" is a means to make the proletariat accept their lot.
- dkersten 4y ago
  It’s very good at fixing problems, but I think even beyond that, money can be used in ways that increase happiness. Some things off the top of my head that money could buy that would increase my happiness or decrease my unhappiness due to things like stress: Beyond simply fixing problems, it also allows you to just not have to think about them at all, which removes stress. Eg if you have enough money, then bills just aren’t things that ever need to take up time or space in your mind. Being able to choose where to live based solely on what would make me happy or being close to the people I care about, without having to make suboptimal decisions based on cost. Not having to work would free up a lot of time to spend with loved ones, on hobbies or activities that bring meaning and joy to my life, or on travelling and seeing wonderful things or places and meeting new people. Even if I want to work, I could at least choose what I want to work on based on what gives me joy and meaning rather than based on financial need. Money allows you to do these things for others: reduce their stresses and financial worries. Doing things for others is usually rewarding. So beyond removing unhappiness caused by basic life problems, I think that money really can meaningfully improve your level of happiness. Yes, you’d eventually hit a point where more money doesn’t improve things, but that number is far higher than the $75k figure usually quoted because $75k isn’t even close enough to quit my job, live closer to my friends, Tavel the world and work on my hobbies and personal projects.
archgoon 4y ago
[dead]
ehnto 4y ago
I don't think that bit is about income, rather about chasing finite goals to find happiness on the other side. It's certainly a trope that many achievements can leave an empty feeling in the space that chasing that dream used to occupy. I think the warning here is not to make your life unbearable to chase happiness after some arbitrary achievement. But I think the advice I appreciate more is just to make sure you're also enjoying the journey, and that you diversify your streams of contentment. It's nice to have stuff that brings you joy while you search for something new after achieving something you had been focussing on.
pil0u 4y ago
Last time I checked, Nobel Prize Daniel Kahneman published a study[0] in 2010 on 450'000 Americans concluding that people's emotional well-being increases with log(income) but stops increasing at around $75k/year. Has this changed this dramatically during the past decade? [0] https://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/deaton_kahneman_high_income_improves_evaluation_August2010.pdf https://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/deaton_kahneman_...
- skitter 4y ago
  There's a recent paper¹ claiming Kahneman & Deaton's study was flawed and happiness does increase above $75k/year. ¹ https://www.pnas.org/doi/epdf/10.1073/pnas.2208661120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/epdf/10.1073/pnas.2208661120
- slindsey 4y ago
  Someone else pointed out the recent paper, but I'll also point out that $75k per year in the US puts you in the 1% of global population for salary. So it's not like $75k is attainable for most people. https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=75000&countryCode=USA&household%5Badults%5D=1&household%5Bchildren%5D=0 https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=...
  - cableshaft 4y ago
    Adjusting for inflation, (since that number was from a paper published in 2010), that number is now $103k.
- kqr 4y ago
  Huh, this is really interesting! I knew the normative properties of log wealth, but the connection between well-being and log income surprises me. What's the connection between wealth and income? Linear or something else?
- cableshaft 4y ago
  Someone else mentioned the potential flaws with the study, but even assuming the study is correct, people keep sharing the $75k number (in 2010) without adjusting it for inflation. Adjusting it for inflation[1], $75k in 2010 would be $103k today. [1] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
flippinburgers 4y ago
Anytime someone blathers "money doesn't equal happiness" advice, I ask them to offload at least some of their monthly paycheck into my wallet since it obviously isn't important to them. Nobody has ever taken me up on the offer.

thecyber 4y ago

[dead]

CM30 4y ago

There are some really good points here, especially for those trying to chase fame and fortune as a creator or artist. Like this: > You return from the peak and think, “Damn. I need that rush again. I need to climb another mountain.” But here’s the thing about that next mountain: it has to be greater than the previous one. This is basically what it's like being a popular YouTuber or Twitch streamer. You reach 1k subs, you want 10k. You reach 10k, you want 100k. Reach 100k, want a million. Etc. You become obsessed with numbers, driven by the initial feeling of joy as you reach each one. You become more and more obsessed with fame and fortune, and likely end up feeling just as hollow as you did at the start. All while risking serious burnout, and driving away the people around you. Becoming rich will certainly make things easier and help happinness wise, but if you're too obsessed with achievements and fortune, you probably won't get to enjoy it.

tennisflyi 4y ago
Not sure I agree. 1k > 10k > 100k pipeline is like tunnel vision induced by infinite growth/capitalism. I'm bootstrapping a small and intimate business right now and my ultimate goal is to just maintain $20k/month with 1k true followers regardless of any/all (economic) environments.
minton 4y ago
Kevin Hart describes this perfectly as the “Can’t Go Backwards” monster in his book Monsters and How to Tame Them[0]. Definitely worth a listen. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/62691779 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/62691779

joshmarinacci 4y ago

Beyond a certain point money can't buy happiness, but it can buy you time.

mark_l_watson 4y ago

This article is similar to Sinek’s book The Infinite Game, which I enjoyed a lot. Off topic and personal: I have enjoyed the tech industry for almost 50 years, but being in my 70s I just don’t have the energy to do everything I want to do. I still play the Infinite Game though as a 40 year AI practitioner by spending 2 hours a week working as an advisor to an AI startup, by closely following deep learning and specifically LLMs, spending about 1 hour a day trying papers + code, and about 2 hours a day writing whatever my “new book project” is. I also allow myself 30 minutes a day, usually during my morning coffee, to scan HN, Twitter, TLDR AI, etc., where I write down things I may want to look at in depth that day. (I wrote about this process yesterday http://mark-watson.blogspot.com/2023/03/time-and-attention-fragmentation-in-our.html http://mark-watson.blogspot.com/2023/03/time-and-attention-f...). Anyway, I still feel in the game, I limit tech/gentleman scientist research/coding/writing to about 4 hours a day - that leaves plenty of time for friends, family, and reading. I really think that some people try to achieve too much in life. Lower expectations and be happier.