6 ms·

When Microsoft was dominant, it was eviscerated for the "embrace, extend, extinguish" approach to protecting its monopoly. Apple shows every indication of bein

by kbutler 15y ago

When Microsoft was dominant, it was eviscerated for the "embrace, extend, extinguish" approach to protecting its monopoly. Apple shows every indication of being a much worse monopolist than Microsoft ever was. Apple seeks to control the whole stack and eliminate competition at every layer - from controlling the apps that can be installed, to restricting expansion and peripherals, to controlling the tools used to develop for the platform. They are also quite adept at "capturing the consumer surplus" using tiered pricing, etc., to maximize their profit. The overreaching terms in developer agreements, very aggressive (and overreaching) patent lawsuits, and restrictive shrink-wrap licensing are all efforts to protect and extend their control. TL;DR: Apple is not your friend.

treenyc 15y ago
It doesn't matters what one do, but where he is doing it from.
grecy 15y ago
>very aggressive (and overreaching) patent lawsuits I'm not going to disagree with you, but every time I hear people complain about Apple and patent lawsuits, I recommend the following: Watch the iPhone introduction video on YouTube. If you don't have time to watch the whole thing, skip to 3.40 in Part 1, and see the state of affairs, then watch at 4.00 in Part 2 [2]. Listen to the crowd reaction when Steve "Slides to unlock" for the first time in the world. It doesn't matter who you are, or what your background is, nobody had ever seen anything like that before. In my opinion, Apple clearly invented something "brand new" and they are defending the patents that have on that in court. What's wrong with that? I don't think anyone can deny successful smartphones today have almost nothing in common with the phones at 3.40 in Part 1 [1], though they look and behave a hell of a lot like the one shown at 4.00 in Part 2 [2]. 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5VTB7Lj_NA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5VTB7Lj_NA 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VLb5XdxRm8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VLb5XdxRm8 EDIT: I need to clarify: I'm not just talking about "slide to unlock" being brand new and patentable.. I'm talking about the whole phone..
- qdog 15y ago
  I'm not sure that was the first slide to unlock, it certainly wasn't the first touchscreen device. http://www.androidcentral.com/apple-granted-patent-slide-unlock-even-though-it-existed-2-years-they-invented-it http://www.androidcentral.com/apple-granted-patent-slide-unl... I tried to like Apple, after receiving an Apple Tv 2, but it doesn't work seamlessly with anything else I own. As one co-worker put it "You need an Apple House for that." I'm glad all the Apple fans have lovely walls in their garden, but I'm not hanging out there. I don't like them trying to patent me into hanging out there for trivial items like "slide to unlock", either. I don't even like slide to unlock! I much prefer just punching the physical button unlock my phone, but I guess that just means I'm old and you damn kids better get off my lawn.
  - r00fus 15y ago
    Can you clarify in your video where it shows the similar slide-to-unlock as in the iPhone? I can't see that at all. edit: qdog, I can't reply to this thread or your response, so I'm going to edit my comment with a link to an article with referencing the specific patent Apple applied for (and was granted) [1]. If you look at the diagrams, it is completely different than what is shown, as there is immediate visual response where there is none in this device... that is a key part of the patent (and requires a capacitive touchscreen). [1] http://9to5mac.com/2011/10/25/slide-to-unlock-patented/ http://9to5mac.com/2011/10/25/slide-to-unlock-patented/
    - qdog 15y ago
      It's about the 4:00 minute mark. There isn't a slider bar graphic, but he has to slide left-to-right to unlock. Apple products work well for a lot of people, I'm just not one of them, and I don't think having to 'slide to unlock' make my Android phone an iPhone clone. Nor is it the type of thing that should be patentable, imho. It'd be like he first company to have a link to a web browser on the main phone screen patenting that concept, it's a pretty obvious idea once you have a phone.
      - nirvana 15y ago
melling 15y ago
Here we go again ... "When Microsoft was dominant..." Microsoft IS dominant. 90% desktop market share. Apple doesn't have anything near a monopoly. The iPad is the closest thing because they have 70% of the nascent tablet market. Android is here and strong and Microsoft will be joining with a respectable product later this year. I could go on but this is really a pointless endless debate.
- armandososa 15y ago
  Looks like Apple has a monopoly on the selling a lot of stuff category.
  - kabdib 15y ago
    I joined Apple in 1987, when they were in a panic because margins on their hardware were slipping from 60 percent to 50 percent. The PC was starting to eat their lunch. Apple recovered by making products they could sell at high margins again (with comparatively little overhead in engineering, I might add). They still suck at stuff outside the area of consumer botique computing. It's a huge market, but it's not the whole market by any stretch.
biafra 15y ago
I agree with almost everything you say here except: How is Apple "controlling the tools used to develop for the platform". I am using AppCode for iOS application development and it works just fine.
its_so_on 15y ago
hey guess what. Microsoft sucked. If suddenly every Linux laptop anywhere in the world turned into a Microsoft laptop, there would be a howl of pain from all corners of the world. If suddenly every Linux laptop anywhere in the world turned into a MacBook, everyone would smile quietly and start configuring it.
- quanticle 15y ago
  If suddenly every Linux laptop anywhere in the world turned into a MacBook, everyone would smile quietly and start configuring it. Lies. If my Linux laptop turned into a Macbook Pro, I'd reformat it and turn it back into a Linux laptop. I used to think that Apple maintained a dichotomy between their iOS arena and their OSX arena. iOS was locked down and OSX was more open. But the introduction of the app. store for OSX, and the pressure placed upon software developers to sell through that app. store shows me that Apple does not draw a distinction between iOS and OSX. It appears that the openness of OSX is a historical artifact, and that if they could get away with locking down OSX as much as they lock down iOS, they would.
  - its_so_on 15y ago
    "If my Linux laptop turned into a Macbook Pro, I'd reformat it and turn it back into a Linux laptop" -- in other words, exactly what I said. And then you would end up with a rocking Linux macbook. There are bussinesspeople that run windows on their macbooks, just because it's such great hardware.
  - gte910h 15y ago
    >pressure placed upon software developers to sell through that app To be fair, I haven't heard of any pressure at all. It's just a very nice platform to ALSO distribute through, as it handles updates far better than many other platforms. You certainly can distribute outside of that.
- mvgoogler 15y ago
  "If suddenly every Linux laptop anywhere in the world turned into a MacBook, everyone would smile quietly and start configuring it" I have call BS on this. As someone who uses all three - and made the switch from Windows to Mac - the whole meme of "it just works" or "is simply superior" is a load of crap. Mac are fine products. The physical design is nice. The trackpad is definitely top-notch. The keyboard? meh. The display? meh. The OS? least impressive of all. It's fine once you get used to it but I have had as many problems getting the Mac OSX to work with stuff as I ever did with Windows or Linux. Sure - it's a different set of problems, but Mac OSX most definitely doesn't "just work". All OSes are good at some things, great at some things and are complete and utter junk in other ways. You just pick you poison learn to live with it.
cjensen 15y ago
You say Apple "shows every indication of being a much worse monopolist." This is a flawed argument because Apple is not a Monopoly in any product line except the iPod. If they become a monopoly in Phones or Computers , they will properly be restrained legally from certain aggressive actions.
redthrowaway 15y ago
>Apple shows every indication of being a much worse monopolist than Microsoft ever was. Difference being, they don't have a monopoly in any area with the possible exception of music players. They have a minority market share in every other product they ship, so the consumer has a ton of choices. If Apple had Google's Search dominance in smartphones, then it would be an issue. As it is, if you don't like Apple, don't buy their products.

by kbutler 15y ago

treenyc 15y ago

It doesn't matters what one do, but where he is doing it from.

grecy 15y ago

>very aggressive (and overreaching) patent lawsuits I'm not going to disagree with you, but every time I hear people complain about Apple and patent lawsuits, I recommend the following: Watch the iPhone introduction video on YouTube. If you don't have time to watch the whole thing, skip to 3.40 in Part 1, and see the state of affairs, then watch at 4.00 in Part 2 [2]. Listen to the crowd reaction when Steve "Slides to unlock" for the first time in the world. It doesn't matter who you are, or what your background is, nobody had ever seen anything like that before. In my opinion, Apple clearly invented something "brand new" and they are defending the patents that have on that in court. What's wrong with that? I don't think anyone can deny successful smartphones today have almost nothing in common with the phones at 3.40 in Part 1 [1], though they look and behave a hell of a lot like the one shown at 4.00 in Part 2 [2]. 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5VTB7Lj_NA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5VTB7Lj_NA 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VLb5XdxRm8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VLb5XdxRm8 EDIT: I need to clarify: I'm not just talking about "slide to unlock" being brand new and patentable.. I'm talking about the whole phone..

qdog 15y ago
I'm not sure that was the first slide to unlock, it certainly wasn't the first touchscreen device. http://www.androidcentral.com/apple-granted-patent-slide-unlock-even-though-it-existed-2-years-they-invented-it http://www.androidcentral.com/apple-granted-patent-slide-unl... I tried to like Apple, after receiving an Apple Tv 2, but it doesn't work seamlessly with anything else I own. As one co-worker put it "You need an Apple House for that." I'm glad all the Apple fans have lovely walls in their garden, but I'm not hanging out there. I don't like them trying to patent me into hanging out there for trivial items like "slide to unlock", either. I don't even like slide to unlock! I much prefer just punching the physical button unlock my phone, but I guess that just means I'm old and you damn kids better get off my lawn.
- r00fus 15y ago
  Can you clarify in your video where it shows the similar slide-to-unlock as in the iPhone? I can't see that at all. edit: qdog, I can't reply to this thread or your response, so I'm going to edit my comment with a link to an article with referencing the specific patent Apple applied for (and was granted) [1]. If you look at the diagrams, it is completely different than what is shown, as there is immediate visual response where there is none in this device... that is a key part of the patent (and requires a capacitive touchscreen). [1] http://9to5mac.com/2011/10/25/slide-to-unlock-patented/ http://9to5mac.com/2011/10/25/slide-to-unlock-patented/
  - qdog 15y ago
    It's about the 4:00 minute mark. There isn't a slider bar graphic, but he has to slide left-to-right to unlock. Apple products work well for a lot of people, I'm just not one of them, and I don't think having to 'slide to unlock' make my Android phone an iPhone clone. Nor is it the type of thing that should be patentable, imho. It'd be like he first company to have a link to a web browser on the main phone screen patenting that concept, it's a pretty obvious idea once you have a phone.
    - nirvana 15y ago

melling 15y ago

Here we go again ... "When Microsoft was dominant..." Microsoft IS dominant. 90% desktop market share. Apple doesn't have anything near a monopoly. The iPad is the closest thing because they have 70% of the nascent tablet market. Android is here and strong and Microsoft will be joining with a respectable product later this year. I could go on but this is really a pointless endless debate.

armandososa 15y ago
Looks like Apple has a monopoly on the selling a lot of stuff category.
- kabdib 15y ago
  I joined Apple in 1987, when they were in a panic because margins on their hardware were slipping from 60 percent to 50 percent. The PC was starting to eat their lunch. Apple recovered by making products they could sell at high margins again (with comparatively little overhead in engineering, I might add). They still suck at stuff outside the area of consumer botique computing. It's a huge market, but it's not the whole market by any stretch.

biafra 15y ago

I agree with almost everything you say here except: How is Apple "controlling the tools used to develop for the platform". I am using AppCode for iOS application development and it works just fine.

its_so_on 15y ago

hey guess what. Microsoft sucked. If suddenly every Linux laptop anywhere in the world turned into a Microsoft laptop, there would be a howl of pain from all corners of the world. If suddenly every Linux laptop anywhere in the world turned into a MacBook, everyone would smile quietly and start configuring it.

quanticle 15y ago
If suddenly every Linux laptop anywhere in the world turned into a MacBook, everyone would smile quietly and start configuring it. Lies. If my Linux laptop turned into a Macbook Pro, I'd reformat it and turn it back into a Linux laptop. I used to think that Apple maintained a dichotomy between their iOS arena and their OSX arena. iOS was locked down and OSX was more open. But the introduction of the app. store for OSX, and the pressure placed upon software developers to sell through that app. store shows me that Apple does not draw a distinction between iOS and OSX. It appears that the openness of OSX is a historical artifact, and that if they could get away with locking down OSX as much as they lock down iOS, they would.
- its_so_on 15y ago
  "If my Linux laptop turned into a Macbook Pro, I'd reformat it and turn it back into a Linux laptop" -- in other words, exactly what I said. And then you would end up with a rocking Linux macbook. There are bussinesspeople that run windows on their macbooks, just because it's such great hardware.
- gte910h 15y ago
  >pressure placed upon software developers to sell through that app To be fair, I haven't heard of any pressure at all. It's just a very nice platform to ALSO distribute through, as it handles updates far better than many other platforms. You certainly can distribute outside of that.
mvgoogler 15y ago
"If suddenly every Linux laptop anywhere in the world turned into a MacBook, everyone would smile quietly and start configuring it" I have call BS on this. As someone who uses all three - and made the switch from Windows to Mac - the whole meme of "it just works" or "is simply superior" is a load of crap. Mac are fine products. The physical design is nice. The trackpad is definitely top-notch. The keyboard? meh. The display? meh. The OS? least impressive of all. It's fine once you get used to it but I have had as many problems getting the Mac OSX to work with stuff as I ever did with Windows or Linux. Sure - it's a different set of problems, but Mac OSX most definitely doesn't "just work". All OSes are good at some things, great at some things and are complete and utter junk in other ways. You just pick you poison learn to live with it.

cjensen 15y ago

You say Apple "shows every indication of being a much worse monopolist." This is a flawed argument because Apple is not a Monopoly in any product line except the iPod. If they become a monopoly in Phones or Computers , they will properly be restrained legally from certain aggressive actions.

redthrowaway 15y ago

>Apple shows every indication of being a much worse monopolist than Microsoft ever was. Difference being, they don't have a monopoly in any area with the possible exception of music players. They have a minority market share in every other product they ship, so the consumer has a ton of choices. If Apple had Google's Search dominance in smartphones, then it would be an issue. As it is, if you don't like Apple, don't buy their products.