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you're wrong. your comment is typical for tech-circles, but completely wrong. Apple understands products. Apple invests heavily into really good design, usabil

you're wrong. your comment is typical for tech-circles, but completely wrong. Apple understands products. Apple invests heavily into really good design, usability and compatibility. Their stuff WORKS, out of the box, without any fiddling. their products stay useful for a long time, longer than any crap of their competitors. This is what makes Apple successful. And it is clear why many "nerds" just don't get it - cause it means in reverse that they are wrong and the tools hey're building are second rate. such a nerdy thing to reduce apple to "good marketing". just like SJ was just a great "showman". It is people like you (sorry) that make Apple's competition looks like the clowns they are. You think a great ad would suddenly make Motorola sell more than Apple? Consumers are NOT idiots. They understand quality and value. They reward that with loyalty and word of mouth advertising. MS has understood this now and is trying hard with WP7. Let's see how that goes. They are lucky XBox 360 competed against Sony, not Apple.

jonnathanson 15y ago
"Apple understands products. Apple invests heavily into really good design, usability and compatibility. Their stuff WORKS, out of the box, without any fiddling. their products stay useful for a long time, longer than any crap of their competitors." This is not mutually exclusive with what I am saying. The two go hand in hand. Of course Apple focuses on product. But as far as its consumer messaging strategy goes, it talks about that product in a very specific, lifestyle-oriented way. Obviously it wouldn't be able to talk that way about its products if it products weren't great. "such a nerdy thing to reduce apple to "good marketing". just like SJ was just a great "showman". This is not at all what I said, and if that's the impression I gave you, then I'm sorry for not having been clear enough. But you're taking what I said in a tangent that was never intended. I am not "reducing" Apple's success to marketing, but rather, am explaining why consumers seem to have a love for Apple that they don't for its competitors (in response to the grandparent comment about not understanding why consumers have an emotional bond with Apple). Marketing and product reinforce one another for Apple; it's not one to the exclusion of the other. "think a great ad would suddenly make Motorola sell more than Apple?" Again, you're pretty wildly misinterpreting my post and making inferences that just aren't there. I'm not sure what else to tell you. Either I wasn't being clear enough, or you misread me, or some combination of the two. But I'm not saying any of what you're accusing me of saying. At all.
- pinaceae 15y ago
  consumers don't really care about marketing at the end of the day. i live in austria. no official apple store. no apple billboards, tv ads, etc. apple marketing is non-existent. and still they sell. like hotcakes. die-hard apple haters succumb and by an iMac. because the products are great. great value for their money. and i don't get your backpedalling. your comment starts with "it's called marketing" and then you're piling on. no consumer "bonds" with a company because of marketing. that's pure drivel. consumers bond with value. if they feel they are treated nice, that they get value for their money. that's the "secret". classic marketing hates it, MBAs too. products matter? wtf. Zappos understands this. Porsche, BMW, etc too.
  - jonnathanson 15y ago
    "and i don't get your backpedalling. your comment starts with "it's called marketing" and then you're piling on." I'm not "backpeddling." I'm clarifying in response to your misreading of my post. You and I are actually in total agreement as regards the quality, and emphasis on quality, of Apple's products. It just so happens that I didn't bring up product quality in my original post, because it wasn't the point I was responding to in the grandparent comment. "no consumer "bonds" with a company because of marketing. that's pure drivel. consumers bond with value. if they feel they are treated nice, that they get value for their money." Here I disagree. I think you're creating a false dichotomy between value and messaging. If "value" is all that matters to a consumer, then a lot of companies would be more successful than they are today. Apple, for instance, has been making great products for more than 30 years. But it hasn't been wildly successful for all of those 30 years. If you're telling me that Apple's marketing turnaround circa the late 90s had nothing to do with its success, you're way off the mark. Product has always played a huge role in Apple's success, but so has its marketing. Steve Jobs himself has said as much in countless interviews, in his biography, and elsewhere. Apple's product design and Apple's marketing have been crucial to Apple's success, but to subtract marketing from that equation is silly. (Full disclosure: I am a former Apple employee who worked in both product and in marketing). Finally, I don't understand the need for your hostility here. I'm a "nerd," I'm "nerdy," it's "people like me" who make the world a terrible place, etc., etc., etc. Can we lay off the personal attacks and converse like civil adults? If you took the time to read what I'm saying more carefully, you'd see that you and I are in a lot more agreement than disagreement. Let's have fun with these discussions. I suspect we're all fairly nerdy, to be honest. I know I am. I probably wouldn't be coming to a site called "Hacker News" if I weren't!
Androsynth 15y ago
You are proof that they have created the greatest marketing machine the world has ever known. You are vociferously arguing that Apple is great. They don't pay you or tell you to do it, you just do it. This army of fans is the greatest marketing coup ever. You have argued the other guy off the page! (although more from passion rather than the argument itself) I'm sure you will keep arguing with anyone else who comments on this. It goes well beyond the simple 'they make great products and I appreciate that' mantra. No one worshiped Henry Ford or his company (imo Apple's closest historical analog). No one is sticking with Yahoo through their tough times (like they did with Apple in the 90's). Apple has turned you into a religious zealot.
- nirvana 15y ago
  Rational people always seem like religious zealots to religious zealots like you. The sad thing is, for the past two decades, Apple customers have been just sitting there doing their thing, happy with their products. Yet whenever Apple is mentioned, the religious zealots come out of the wood work to bash Apple and to bash these people. This thread is a good example, in fact HN is overrun with threads whose sole purpose is to bash Apple, because HN is overrun with religious zealots who hate Apple. When Apple was the small fry, this was really curious. I mean, what was it about Apple that caused religious zealots -- who are not Apple customers-- to seek out Apple customers and bash them? Why feel so threatened that a company near bankruptcy dares to make something different? Finally I came to understand why. The reason is that deep down, you know Apple products are better. IF you didn't' think that, why would you be threatened by people who think different? Now that Apple is successful-- because its products are better-- the bashing has changed from "Apple's nothing they have %2 market share!" (When they actually had %25 market share in PCs) to "Apple's evil! They want to control everything, they're worse than Microsoft!" (which is kinda hilarious coming from google loving zealots-- google has betrayed people's trust, google is genuinely evil, while Apple has never cheated or lied to anyone that I'm aware of.) And of course, because you're completely out of your mind irrational with hatred, you can't accept the fact that it is you who has a problem-- you who is seeking out peaceful apple customers minding their own business. No, you must project your pathology onto them, and start calling them "cultists" and "religious zealots" and all manner of pejoratives like that. Because, lying about Apple products, bashing Apple the company, spiting on Steve Jobs' grave-- these are not enough. No, you must attack the people who dared to choose to be customers of Apple as well. All those people you think are religious zealots-- if you look at what they say, and try real hard to be honest about it-- you'll recognize that all they're doing is correcting myths, misinformation and outright lies. That's it. You don't see us posting threads to HN for the sole purpose of bashing google or linux zealots.
heliodor 15y ago
Hmm, you may be on to something here. I tend to think that Apple is just good at brainwashing people, but I'm starting to see your point that people just appreciate the fact that Apple products just WORK. I am a big Apple hater, but I got fed up with Windows and bought a used Macbook four years ago and I never looked back. It just WORKS!!! On top of that, it looks pretty, and its resale value is much better than a PC's! But maybe it's not the absolute quality of the product that sells, but rather the difference in quality between the top two options. I'll take my macbook over a pc laptop any day but I'm plenty fine with my Android phone.

jonnathanson 15y ago

"Apple understands products. Apple invests heavily into really good design, usability and compatibility. Their stuff WORKS, out of the box, without any fiddling. their products stay useful for a long time, longer than any crap of their competitors." This is not mutually exclusive with what I am saying. The two go hand in hand. Of course Apple focuses on product. But as far as its consumer messaging strategy goes, it talks about that product in a very specific, lifestyle-oriented way. Obviously it wouldn't be able to talk that way about its products if it products weren't great. "such a nerdy thing to reduce apple to "good marketing". just like SJ was just a great "showman". This is not at all what I said, and if that's the impression I gave you, then I'm sorry for not having been clear enough. But you're taking what I said in a tangent that was never intended. I am not "reducing" Apple's success to marketing, but rather, am explaining why consumers seem to have a love for Apple that they don't for its competitors (in response to the grandparent comment about not understanding why consumers have an emotional bond with Apple). Marketing and product reinforce one another for Apple; it's not one to the exclusion of the other. "think a great ad would suddenly make Motorola sell more than Apple?" Again, you're pretty wildly misinterpreting my post and making inferences that just aren't there. I'm not sure what else to tell you. Either I wasn't being clear enough, or you misread me, or some combination of the two. But I'm not saying any of what you're accusing me of saying. At all.

pinaceae 15y ago
consumers don't really care about marketing at the end of the day. i live in austria. no official apple store. no apple billboards, tv ads, etc. apple marketing is non-existent. and still they sell. like hotcakes. die-hard apple haters succumb and by an iMac. because the products are great. great value for their money. and i don't get your backpedalling. your comment starts with "it's called marketing" and then you're piling on. no consumer "bonds" with a company because of marketing. that's pure drivel. consumers bond with value. if they feel they are treated nice, that they get value for their money. that's the "secret". classic marketing hates it, MBAs too. products matter? wtf. Zappos understands this. Porsche, BMW, etc too.
- jonnathanson 15y ago
  "and i don't get your backpedalling. your comment starts with "it's called marketing" and then you're piling on." I'm not "backpeddling." I'm clarifying in response to your misreading of my post. You and I are actually in total agreement as regards the quality, and emphasis on quality, of Apple's products. It just so happens that I didn't bring up product quality in my original post, because it wasn't the point I was responding to in the grandparent comment. "no consumer "bonds" with a company because of marketing. that's pure drivel. consumers bond with value. if they feel they are treated nice, that they get value for their money." Here I disagree. I think you're creating a false dichotomy between value and messaging. If "value" is all that matters to a consumer, then a lot of companies would be more successful than they are today. Apple, for instance, has been making great products for more than 30 years. But it hasn't been wildly successful for all of those 30 years. If you're telling me that Apple's marketing turnaround circa the late 90s had nothing to do with its success, you're way off the mark. Product has always played a huge role in Apple's success, but so has its marketing. Steve Jobs himself has said as much in countless interviews, in his biography, and elsewhere. Apple's product design and Apple's marketing have been crucial to Apple's success, but to subtract marketing from that equation is silly. (Full disclosure: I am a former Apple employee who worked in both product and in marketing). Finally, I don't understand the need for your hostility here. I'm a "nerd," I'm "nerdy," it's "people like me" who make the world a terrible place, etc., etc., etc. Can we lay off the personal attacks and converse like civil adults? If you took the time to read what I'm saying more carefully, you'd see that you and I are in a lot more agreement than disagreement. Let's have fun with these discussions. I suspect we're all fairly nerdy, to be honest. I know I am. I probably wouldn't be coming to a site called "Hacker News" if I weren't!

Androsynth 15y ago

You are proof that they have created the greatest marketing machine the world has ever known. You are vociferously arguing that Apple is great. They don't pay you or tell you to do it, you just do it. This army of fans is the greatest marketing coup ever. You have argued the other guy off the page! (although more from passion rather than the argument itself) I'm sure you will keep arguing with anyone else who comments on this. It goes well beyond the simple 'they make great products and I appreciate that' mantra. No one worshiped Henry Ford or his company (imo Apple's closest historical analog). No one is sticking with Yahoo through their tough times (like they did with Apple in the 90's). Apple has turned you into a religious zealot.

nirvana 15y ago
Rational people always seem like religious zealots to religious zealots like you. The sad thing is, for the past two decades, Apple customers have been just sitting there doing their thing, happy with their products. Yet whenever Apple is mentioned, the religious zealots come out of the wood work to bash Apple and to bash these people. This thread is a good example, in fact HN is overrun with threads whose sole purpose is to bash Apple, because HN is overrun with religious zealots who hate Apple. When Apple was the small fry, this was really curious. I mean, what was it about Apple that caused religious zealots -- who are not Apple customers-- to seek out Apple customers and bash them? Why feel so threatened that a company near bankruptcy dares to make something different? Finally I came to understand why. The reason is that deep down, you know Apple products are better. IF you didn't' think that, why would you be threatened by people who think different? Now that Apple is successful-- because its products are better-- the bashing has changed from "Apple's nothing they have %2 market share!" (When they actually had %25 market share in PCs) to "Apple's evil! They want to control everything, they're worse than Microsoft!" (which is kinda hilarious coming from google loving zealots-- google has betrayed people's trust, google is genuinely evil, while Apple has never cheated or lied to anyone that I'm aware of.) And of course, because you're completely out of your mind irrational with hatred, you can't accept the fact that it is you who has a problem-- you who is seeking out peaceful apple customers minding their own business. No, you must project your pathology onto them, and start calling them "cultists" and "religious zealots" and all manner of pejoratives like that. Because, lying about Apple products, bashing Apple the company, spiting on Steve Jobs' grave-- these are not enough. No, you must attack the people who dared to choose to be customers of Apple as well. All those people you think are religious zealots-- if you look at what they say, and try real hard to be honest about it-- you'll recognize that all they're doing is correcting myths, misinformation and outright lies. That's it. You don't see us posting threads to HN for the sole purpose of bashing google or linux zealots.

heliodor 15y ago

Hmm, you may be on to something here. I tend to think that Apple is just good at brainwashing people, but I'm starting to see your point that people just appreciate the fact that Apple products just WORK. I am a big Apple hater, but I got fed up with Windows and bought a used Macbook four years ago and I never looked back. It just WORKS!!! On top of that, it looks pretty, and its resale value is much better than a PC's! But maybe it's not the absolute quality of the product that sells, but rather the difference in quality between the top two options. I'll take my macbook over a pc laptop any day but I'm plenty fine with my Android phone.