9 ms·

Wow that's colorful for court documents. I don't see how it could have turned out any other way. I'm just surprised he was actually arrested for something tha

Wow that's colorful for court documents. I don't see how it could have turned out any other way. I'm just surprised he was actually arrested for something that's obviously covered by the first amendment. This reeks incompetence from the district attorney, trying to intimidate the man out of his rights like that.

barbazoo 4y ago
> I'm just surprised he was actually arrested for something that's obviously covered by the first amendment FYI, This is in Canada
- tonyarkles 4y ago
  To be fair, despite being Canada, the judge agrees with you. At the start: > [5] To the complainants, the presence of young families outside it is a source of scorn and vivid resentment that ultimately spilled over into a criminal complaint against their neighbour. A school teacher. A caring father of two young daughters who committed no crime whatsoever. A man who has somehow been subjected to criminal charges for almost two years. > [6] This injustice ends today. And at the end: > [168] To be abundantly clear, it is not a crime to give someone the finger. Flipping the proverbial bird is a God-given, Charter enshrined right that belongs to every red-blooded Canadian. It may not be civil, it may not be polite, it may not be gentlemanly. > [169] Nevertheless, it does not trigger criminal liability. Offending someone is not a crime. It is an integral component of one’s freedom of expression. Citizens are to be thicker-skinned, especially when they behave in ways that are highly likely to trigger such profanity – like driving too fast on a street where innocent kids are playing. Being told to “fuck off” should not prompt a call to 9-1-1. > [170] On that topic, the evidence in the case at bar established that even after the accused’s arrest, therefore after the period covered by these charges, Michael Naccache called the police again to report that Mr. Epstein’s wife had given them the finger while walking on the street.[55] > [171] This needs to stop. The complainants are free to clutch their pearls in the face of such an insult. However, the police department and the 9-1-1 dispatching service have more important priorities to address.
  - rhaway84773 4y ago
    What a great judge. They have crystallized all the issues with this bullshit in a really straightforward, yet persuasive and hilarious way.
  - jwalton 4y ago
    Yes, but there’s no first amendment in Canada. There’s the Charter of Rights and Freedoms at the federal level, and the Charte des droits et libertés de la personne at the provincial level.
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is meaningless given the notwithstanding clause. The government can violate the “rights” in the Charter as long as they’re willing to pass legislation to do so every five years. https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/notwithstanding-clause https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/notwithsta...
      - tonyarkles 4y ago
        Section 1 doesn't even require the every-five-years bit, the violation just needs to be "demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society". Drinking and driving laws and traffic checkstops, for example, fall under this; there's no evidence that a crime as been committed or any probable cause at all at the moment you're being temporarily detained, and it's a crime to refuse to provide a road-side breath sample. Both of these have been assessed by the SCC and determined to, yes, be charter violations, and yes, perfectly ok because they're justified in a free and democratic society.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
tjohns 4y ago
The first amendment to the US constitution does not apply to Canada. Unless you believe US law is globally binding. (That said, Canada does have their own freedom of speech, under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.)
- version_five 4y ago
  Canada's charter of rights and freedoms isn't worth the paper it's printed on, especially in Quebec where the government actively pre-empts it (it has a clause that allows this, explaining why it's worthless) when it doesn't line up with their ideology.
  - acover 4y ago
    We grant you this right, not withstanding any desire we have to take it away.
    - refurb 4y ago
      No to mention the rather flippant suspension of Charter Rights during the Trucker Convoy.
      - tonyarkles 4y ago
        One of the most frustrating things about that whole situation with the Emergencies Act is the people simultaneously shouting "they have to use it, it's the only way for them to have the power to shut it down!" and "no one's rights are being violated!" I found the final report on the whole EA invocation to be reasonable. It found that the use of the EA was warranted, but also made it crystal clear that a) other people could look at the same facts and come to a different conclusion, and b) that the only reason it got to the point where it needed to be invoked was due to government incompetence at the municipal, provincial, and federal level.
        rhaway84773 4y ago
sangnoir 4y ago
> I'm just surprised he was actually arrested for something that's obviously covered by the first amendment >> [...] Canadian Judge rules
Waterluvian 4y ago
Americans are harassed and arrested _ALL THE TIME_ for obvious 1A protected speech. This is why Courts of nations with true free speech are very eager to push back when police abuse their power. This prose is just that. An absolute scolding.
talideon 4y ago
How can you tell me that you're American without actually saying it? Oh, here's a way!
thfuran 4y ago
Judicial opinions are often colorful.
karaterobot 4y ago
God help you, you made an honest mistake, and now everybody gets to jump down your throat about it. Here's an upvote from one of the few people on HN who occasionally commits and error and can sympathize.
- Beldin 4y ago
  Moreover, GP's got a point: it cannot be good for your career as a prosecutor to have such a verdict on your record. Every second point is the judge tearing the case to shreds... your boss would wonder why you didn't catch that yourself.
- tharkun__ 4y ago
  Looking at this he made no mistake at all and is rightfully being voted into oblivion. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35102169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35102169
fmdragon 4y ago
The right to recognize Manitoba as a province?

barbazoo 4y ago

> I'm just surprised he was actually arrested for something that's obviously covered by the first amendment FYI, This is in Canada

tonyarkles 4y ago
To be fair, despite being Canada, the judge agrees with you. At the start: > [5] To the complainants, the presence of young families outside it is a source of scorn and vivid resentment that ultimately spilled over into a criminal complaint against their neighbour. A school teacher. A caring father of two young daughters who committed no crime whatsoever. A man who has somehow been subjected to criminal charges for almost two years. > [6] This injustice ends today. And at the end: > [168] To be abundantly clear, it is not a crime to give someone the finger. Flipping the proverbial bird is a God-given, Charter enshrined right that belongs to every red-blooded Canadian. It may not be civil, it may not be polite, it may not be gentlemanly. > [169] Nevertheless, it does not trigger criminal liability. Offending someone is not a crime. It is an integral component of one’s freedom of expression. Citizens are to be thicker-skinned, especially when they behave in ways that are highly likely to trigger such profanity – like driving too fast on a street where innocent kids are playing. Being told to “fuck off” should not prompt a call to 9-1-1. > [170] On that topic, the evidence in the case at bar established that even after the accused’s arrest, therefore after the period covered by these charges, Michael Naccache called the police again to report that Mr. Epstein’s wife had given them the finger while walking on the street.[55] > [171] This needs to stop. The complainants are free to clutch their pearls in the face of such an insult. However, the police department and the 9-1-1 dispatching service have more important priorities to address.
- rhaway84773 4y ago
  What a great judge. They have crystallized all the issues with this bullshit in a really straightforward, yet persuasive and hilarious way.
- jwalton 4y ago
  Yes, but there’s no first amendment in Canada. There’s the Charter of Rights and Freedoms at the federal level, and the Charte des droits et libertés de la personne at the provincial level.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is meaningless given the notwithstanding clause. The government can violate the “rights” in the Charter as long as they’re willing to pass legislation to do so every five years. https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/notwithstanding-clause https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/notwithsta...
    - tonyarkles 4y ago
      Section 1 doesn't even require the every-five-years bit, the violation just needs to be "demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society". Drinking and driving laws and traffic checkstops, for example, fall under this; there's no evidence that a crime as been committed or any probable cause at all at the moment you're being temporarily detained, and it's a crime to refuse to provide a road-side breath sample. Both of these have been assessed by the SCC and determined to, yes, be charter violations, and yes, perfectly ok because they're justified in a free and democratic society.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

tjohns 4y ago

The first amendment to the US constitution does not apply to Canada. Unless you believe US law is globally binding. (That said, Canada does have their own freedom of speech, under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.)

version_five 4y ago
Canada's charter of rights and freedoms isn't worth the paper it's printed on, especially in Quebec where the government actively pre-empts it (it has a clause that allows this, explaining why it's worthless) when it doesn't line up with their ideology.
- acover 4y ago
  We grant you this right, not withstanding any desire we have to take it away.
  - refurb 4y ago
    No to mention the rather flippant suspension of Charter Rights during the Trucker Convoy.
    - tonyarkles 4y ago
      One of the most frustrating things about that whole situation with the Emergencies Act is the people simultaneously shouting "they have to use it, it's the only way for them to have the power to shut it down!" and "no one's rights are being violated!" I found the final report on the whole EA invocation to be reasonable. It found that the use of the EA was warranted, but also made it crystal clear that a) other people could look at the same facts and come to a different conclusion, and b) that the only reason it got to the point where it needed to be invoked was due to government incompetence at the municipal, provincial, and federal level.
      - rhaway84773 4y ago

sangnoir 4y ago

> I'm just surprised he was actually arrested for something that's obviously covered by the first amendment >> [...] Canadian Judge rules

Waterluvian 4y ago

Americans are harassed and arrested _ALL THE TIME_ for obvious 1A protected speech. This is why Courts of nations with true free speech are very eager to push back when police abuse their power. This prose is just that. An absolute scolding.

talideon 4y ago

How can you tell me that you're American without actually saying it? Oh, here's a way!

thfuran 4y ago

Judicial opinions are often colorful.

karaterobot 4y ago

God help you, you made an honest mistake, and now everybody gets to jump down your throat about it. Here's an upvote from one of the few people on HN who occasionally commits and error and can sympathize.

Beldin 4y ago
Moreover, GP's got a point: it cannot be good for your career as a prosecutor to have such a verdict on your record. Every second point is the judge tearing the case to shreds... your boss would wonder why you didn't catch that yourself.
tharkun__ 4y ago
Looking at this he made no mistake at all and is rightfully being voted into oblivion. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35102169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35102169

fmdragon 4y ago

The right to recognize Manitoba as a province?