4 ms·

It is strange how this interview is currently used. Clearly Bezmenov alleges that the subversion tactics were promoting original left-wing causes since the 1960

by nlrtpx 4y ago

It is strange how this interview is currently used. Clearly Bezmenov alleges that the subversion tactics were promoting original left-wing causes since the 1960s: He cites Hippie culture, pilgrimages to India, cultural marxism, etc. Basically everything that Reagan did not like. Now the ruling party are Democrats, and apparently the same interview is used to prove current Russian disinformation, i.e. (alleged) right wing propaganda. Meanwhile even the Pentagon currently implements the original (alleged) left wing culture war subversion tactics. So which is it? Has Russian disinformation pivoted to right wing and the Pentagon is behind the curve? Or is the whole Russian disinformation issue overblown? Clearly the original subversion items are pushed by the corporate and state woke-washing agenda. So they are apparently good now. I don't see how right wing propaganda could help Russia, since in important foreign policy matters Democrats and Republicans are fundamentally the same. Evan Trump has armed Ukraine.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
"cultural marxism" is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory that you're referencing (and as a brand new account with one comment)
- skissane 4y ago
  > "cultural marxism" is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory The Frankfurt School was real, not a "conspiracy theory". "Cultural Marxism" was originally used to refer to the Frankfurt School and its intellectual heirs by (left-leaning) academic Trent Schroyer, in his 1973 book The Origins and Development of Critical Theory – long before the term had any currency on the right. And they really have been a significant influence on left-of-centre academia in the humanities and social sciences, which in turn has been a real influence on the broader culture (especially at the somewhat elite level of establishment journalism, NGOs, etc) Do a lot of people on the right overstate and exaggerate that influence, or offer overly simplistic accounts of it? Yep. But, this "it's a conspiracy theory" meme seems to be responding to that with its exact opposite, intentional understatement and denial. And "far right antisemitic" seems to be an exercise in guilt-by-association: Are some people who talk about this far-right or antisemitic? Yes. Are they all? No. Is the idea in itself (however true or false it may be), that "the Frankfurt School has had an outsized influence on contemporary progressivism", inherently "far right" or antisemitic? No. That's not to say I like all this "cultural Marxism" talk – I hate how it treats "Marxism" as a dirty word. It's so cringeworthy when right-wingers (Americans seem especially prone to it) do that. That's not to say I agree with Marxism, or deny that in practice it has caused a lot of mayhem, suffering, evil. But I'd much rather listen to the kind of right-wingers who can see the good in Marxism, even the common ground people on the political right can find with Marxists – I think Compact magazine is a good example of this, which started when two conservative Catholics and a Marxist got together to talk about what they had in common, and ended up founding a magazine to continue that conversation. But to me, "cultural Marxism is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory" ends up coming across as just as much a brain-dead talking point as "cultural Marxism" itself so often is.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    The historical Frankfurt School was quite socially conservative and far from what is now described as "woke". The actual issue with the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory is not that the Frankfurt School somehow didn't exist; it's that they were, quite simply, not involved in the kind of conspiracy that they're sometimes clumsily accused of. Did Western radicals rip off some broad ideas from the Frankfurt School back in the 1960s and 1970s? Of course they did; and "Marx, Mao, Marcuse!" was even a common slogan at the time. But really, the bulk of their idealogical memeplex was coming from Marx and especially Mao (as influenced by Lin Biao and the Gang of Four), whilst they mostly ignored what Marcuse would've said.
    - skissane 4y ago
      If we want to debate exactly how much influence the Frankfurt School had - that’s the kind of thing about which reasonable people can disagree-although I still think it had greater influence than you do. See https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/just-because-anti-semites-talk-about-cultural-marxism-doesnt-mean-it-isnt-real https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/just-becaus... For me, the big issue is that labelling one side of the discussion as a “far right antisemitic conspiracy theory” is not conducive to having a nuanced historical debate about the topic, instead it is an attempt by one side to shut the discussion down. It is true that some voices in the debate verge on the conspiratorial, or are antisemitic - it is wrong to smear everyone on the same side as that though. Zubatov, who I link to above, is writing in a respectable (right-leaning) Jewish magazine, and I’m guessing is quite possibly Jewish himself - he might be wrong, but I don’t think it is fair to accuse him of promoting a “far right antisemitic conspiracy theory” I do agree a lot of criticisms from the right turn historical left(-ish) thinkers into caricatures - to give a different example, Foucault. While many want to blame him for contemporary “wokeness”, I think if he were still alive today, he’d be far more critical of it than supportive-especially the censoriousness and corporate entanglements of so much of it. While he was unapologetic about his own same-sex sexual desires, at the same time he criticised “homosexuality” as a historically contingent cultural construct-which is a long way from how most of the contemporary LGBT movement views it. All that said, while many on the right are guilty of this, it wouldn’t be fair to say they all are.
- nascx 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    [flagged]
norwalkbear 4y ago
It sounds like subversion happened starting in the 80/90s lead to rise of the current Democrat party.

by nlrtpx 4y ago

wahnfrieden 4y ago

"cultural marxism" is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory that you're referencing (and as a brand new account with one comment)

skissane 4y ago
> "cultural marxism" is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory The Frankfurt School was real, not a "conspiracy theory". "Cultural Marxism" was originally used to refer to the Frankfurt School and its intellectual heirs by (left-leaning) academic Trent Schroyer, in his 1973 book The Origins and Development of Critical Theory – long before the term had any currency on the right. And they really have been a significant influence on left-of-centre academia in the humanities and social sciences, which in turn has been a real influence on the broader culture (especially at the somewhat elite level of establishment journalism, NGOs, etc) Do a lot of people on the right overstate and exaggerate that influence, or offer overly simplistic accounts of it? Yep. But, this "it's a conspiracy theory" meme seems to be responding to that with its exact opposite, intentional understatement and denial. And "far right antisemitic" seems to be an exercise in guilt-by-association: Are some people who talk about this far-right or antisemitic? Yes. Are they all? No. Is the idea in itself (however true or false it may be), that "the Frankfurt School has had an outsized influence on contemporary progressivism", inherently "far right" or antisemitic? No. That's not to say I like all this "cultural Marxism" talk – I hate how it treats "Marxism" as a dirty word. It's so cringeworthy when right-wingers (Americans seem especially prone to it) do that. That's not to say I agree with Marxism, or deny that in practice it has caused a lot of mayhem, suffering, evil. But I'd much rather listen to the kind of right-wingers who can see the good in Marxism, even the common ground people on the political right can find with Marxists – I think Compact magazine is a good example of this, which started when two conservative Catholics and a Marxist got together to talk about what they had in common, and ended up founding a magazine to continue that conversation. But to me, "cultural Marxism is a far right antisemitic conspiracy theory" ends up coming across as just as much a brain-dead talking point as "cultural Marxism" itself so often is.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  The historical Frankfurt School was quite socially conservative and far from what is now described as "woke". The actual issue with the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory is not that the Frankfurt School somehow didn't exist; it's that they were, quite simply, not involved in the kind of conspiracy that they're sometimes clumsily accused of. Did Western radicals rip off some broad ideas from the Frankfurt School back in the 1960s and 1970s? Of course they did; and "Marx, Mao, Marcuse!" was even a common slogan at the time. But really, the bulk of their idealogical memeplex was coming from Marx and especially Mao (as influenced by Lin Biao and the Gang of Four), whilst they mostly ignored what Marcuse would've said.
  - skissane 4y ago
    If we want to debate exactly how much influence the Frankfurt School had - that’s the kind of thing about which reasonable people can disagree-although I still think it had greater influence than you do. See https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/just-because-anti-semites-talk-about-cultural-marxism-doesnt-mean-it-isnt-real https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/just-becaus... For me, the big issue is that labelling one side of the discussion as a “far right antisemitic conspiracy theory” is not conducive to having a nuanced historical debate about the topic, instead it is an attempt by one side to shut the discussion down. It is true that some voices in the debate verge on the conspiratorial, or are antisemitic - it is wrong to smear everyone on the same side as that though. Zubatov, who I link to above, is writing in a respectable (right-leaning) Jewish magazine, and I’m guessing is quite possibly Jewish himself - he might be wrong, but I don’t think it is fair to accuse him of promoting a “far right antisemitic conspiracy theory” I do agree a lot of criticisms from the right turn historical left(-ish) thinkers into caricatures - to give a different example, Foucault. While many want to blame him for contemporary “wokeness”, I think if he were still alive today, he’d be far more critical of it than supportive-especially the censoriousness and corporate entanglements of so much of it. While he was unapologetic about his own same-sex sexual desires, at the same time he criticised “homosexuality” as a historically contingent cultural construct-which is a long way from how most of the contemporary LGBT movement views it. All that said, while many on the right are guilty of this, it wouldn’t be fair to say they all are.
nascx 4y ago
[flagged]
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  [flagged]

norwalkbear 4y ago

It sounds like subversion happened starting in the 80/90s lead to rise of the current Democrat party.