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It's articles like this that basically sum up perfectly why I refuse to discuss anything Apple with people. Don't get me wrong, I like many of the products tha

It's articles like this that basically sum up perfectly why I refuse to discuss anything Apple with people. Don't get me wrong, I like many of the products that Apple make (I'm currently typing this up with a MBP), however the personal connection that people have with Apple is not something I share. For many people there exists a strange bond with Apple where they take any negative comment about one of their products or services as a personal affront against themselves. It's a corporation folks, a wildly successful one, but that's it. It's not your buddy, your soulmate, nor your friend.

c1sc0 15y ago
May I suggest that you simply don't understand the value branding? I know it's hard for people like us to understand, but most people can get irrationally attached to products, people, ideologies etc ... just because they had a positive experience once & are being reminded of it ad nauseam.
- barranger 15y ago
  Oh I fully agree that I don't completely understand value branding, it's just that with Apple it goes to a new level. There was an odd Web video floating around (link escapes me) of an animated customer talking to a sales clerk looking for an iPhone (something about does it have the WiFis) that perfectly describes far too many of the conversations I've had with people about apple products.
  - onemoreact 15y ago
    People often feel the same attachment to their truck / car / boat.
jonnathanson 15y ago
It's called marketing. Apple understands branding and marketing; very few other hardware makers do. What's remarkable is that Apple has been using the same playbook for decades now, and nobody else has quite figured it out. It's the Nike playbook (Steve Jobs once said that he learned a lot from Nike's example). Don't market your tech specs; market your lifestyle. Apple's competitors are still running commercials about the dimensions, specifications, and miscellaneous stats of their devices. Such commercials basically announce "Hey consumers, here's a commodity. For the time being, it's slightly differentiated from other, more or less interchangeable commodities by way of some wonky stats you don't understand. Please buy it." Apple commercials, by contrast, show use cases and lifestyles. They use metaphorical and superlative language. That stuff works. It establishes an emotional bond with the consumer. Apple commercials aren't even really about Apple; they're about making consumers feel cool, special, hip, and creative because they use Apple products. It's the ultimate in feel-good messaging. Seriously: watch a Motorola Droid RAZR commercial, then watch an iPhone commercial. The difference is extraordinary.
- pinaceae 15y ago
  you're wrong. your comment is typical for tech-circles, but completely wrong. Apple understands products. Apple invests heavily into really good design, usability and compatibility. Their stuff WORKS, out of the box, without any fiddling. their products stay useful for a long time, longer than any crap of their competitors. This is what makes Apple successful. And it is clear why many "nerds" just don't get it - cause it means in reverse that they are wrong and the tools hey're building are second rate. such a nerdy thing to reduce apple to "good marketing". just like SJ was just a great "showman". It is people like you (sorry) that make Apple's competition looks like the clowns they are. You think a great ad would suddenly make Motorola sell more than Apple? Consumers are NOT idiots. They understand quality and value. They reward that with loyalty and word of mouth advertising. MS has understood this now and is trying hard with WP7. Let's see how that goes. They are lucky XBox 360 competed against Sony, not Apple.
  - jonnathanson 15y ago
    "Apple understands products. Apple invests heavily into really good design, usability and compatibility. Their stuff WORKS, out of the box, without any fiddling. their products stay useful for a long time, longer than any crap of their competitors." This is not mutually exclusive with what I am saying. The two go hand in hand. Of course Apple focuses on product. But as far as its consumer messaging strategy goes, it talks about that product in a very specific, lifestyle-oriented way. Obviously it wouldn't be able to talk that way about its products if it products weren't great. "such a nerdy thing to reduce apple to "good marketing". just like SJ was just a great "showman". This is not at all what I said, and if that's the impression I gave you, then I'm sorry for not having been clear enough. But you're taking what I said in a tangent that was never intended. I am not "reducing" Apple's success to marketing, but rather, am explaining why consumers seem to have a love for Apple that they don't for its competitors (in response to the grandparent comment about not understanding why consumers have an emotional bond with Apple). Marketing and product reinforce one another for Apple; it's not one to the exclusion of the other. "think a great ad would suddenly make Motorola sell more than Apple?" Again, you're pretty wildly misinterpreting my post and making inferences that just aren't there. I'm not sure what else to tell you. Either I wasn't being clear enough, or you misread me, or some combination of the two. But I'm not saying any of what you're accusing me of saying. At all.
michaelcampbell 15y ago
I watched an interesting show on cults and what chemical/neurological things happen in the brain with respect to cults a few years ago, and how corporations have tried to foster this for brand loyalty. What stuck in my memory (perhaps incorrectly) is how few have actually done it. The examples they gave were only, if memory serves; Coke, Nike, Apple, VW, and more ephemerally, Linux.
victork2 15y ago
I could not agree more. I just don't get the connection that people feel with companies like they are their friend or something. Hell, I only care that my company earns money to keep my job. Apple people, more than everybody else, feel insulted and compelled to convince you that Apple products are "THE BEST" (totally ignoring that people have different use of computers). Just look at his final line: "Make the best damn product out there, charge a profitable price, and win the world." -> The "best damn product" seriously ? Is there ONE best product ? I just don't get it...
bradleyland 15y ago
I find the disassociation of corporations and people strange. Corporations are made up of people. Those people have a set of ideas that govern the direction they take their company. As corporations grow larger, they typically disassociate by nature. Megacorps like AT&T, Comcast, etc intentionally diassociate with their customers in order to reduce costs. The depersonalization of customer service is probably the best example. I think what drives consumers' connection to Apple is that they have intentionally avoided the customer disassociation model of business. Apple incorporates their customer idea in to their products and their advertising. Apple's products are opinionated. Think about that last statement for a moment. Opinion matters. Our opinions are a large part of our identity, and humans are inherently tribal. We associate with those who share our opinion. This is observable in everything from politics to commenting on HN. Writing that expresses strong opinion typically solicits the greatest number of comments. As a corollary, no one likes soft writing. We use terms like "wish washy" and "waffling". It is no coincidence that Apple's users are their greatest advocates. Apple has created a company and products that allows me to identify with them. I won't be shamed for doing so.
mkr-hn 15y ago
I've noticed the same thing. I get downvoted quick any time I make a fair and carefully worded comment about Apple that isn't glowing, and the comment stays gray until someone with a cooler head comes along.
alain94040 15y ago
It may not be my soulmate, but some companies do change the world (or at least try), and others don't. Have you ever seen a 4-year old try an iPad? Such experience was just not thinkable 10 years ago. A company had to try to build it and make it happen. A lot more companies didn't bother and just produced more gray boxes (think Dell). Therefore I am entitled to feel a stronger sense of satisfaction with Apple than with Dell. (*) to their credit, Dell did play a significant part in bringing computing to the masses
- joebadmo 15y ago
  I'm not convinced that that's the source of identification people feel with Apple. There are certainly other organizations that make a bigger and more overt "difference" than Apple, no?
- huggyface 15y ago
  "Have you ever seen a 4-year old try an iPad? Such experience was just not thinkable 10 years ago." Have you seen a 4-year old try a Windows machine? Honestly, I'm unsure whether people are just grossly underestimating children, or they never bothered giving them the outlet before. My four year old is a master of Windows 7. He has no problem with Vista before, going back to when he was two. He loads the browser, knows his favorite sites, uses YouTube, plays games on CBC Kids, etc. As did my two older children. My one year old hops up on the PC and moves the mouse, clicking on things of interest on the screen. I just don't get the notion that kids and the iPad are some magical combination. Kids are brilliant, at a very young age, and the only reason the kids and the iPad/phone/pod stories get play is that it plays into the mythology surrounding Apple.
  - alain94040 15y ago
    Substitute a 4 year old by a 2 year old and let me know how Windows 7 works for you. If you give me another counter-example, keep going lower in age. I guarantee there is a point when touch beats click for toddlers.
scorpion032 15y ago
> It's a corporation folks, a wildly successful one, but that's it. It's not your buddy, your soulmate, nor your friend. Who do you think of when someone speaks about Apple? Who defined what it is, really. If he embodies the ideals you appreciate, it really is personal.
shmerl 15y ago
Yes, I find it strange, that when it comes to Apple, some people who are reasonable otherwise simply stop thinking rationally, and don't hear any real arguments. So it really can be a waste of time trying to reason with such kind of people.
generators 15y ago
its people's hero making ability that inspires people. ignoring a success will not going to help anyone.

c1sc0 15y ago

May I suggest that you simply don't understand the value branding? I know it's hard for people like us to understand, but most people can get irrationally attached to products, people, ideologies etc ... just because they had a positive experience once & are being reminded of it ad nauseam.

barranger 15y ago
Oh I fully agree that I don't completely understand value branding, it's just that with Apple it goes to a new level. There was an odd Web video floating around (link escapes me) of an animated customer talking to a sales clerk looking for an iPhone (something about does it have the WiFis) that perfectly describes far too many of the conversations I've had with people about apple products.
- onemoreact 15y ago
  People often feel the same attachment to their truck / car / boat.

jonnathanson 15y ago

It's called marketing. Apple understands branding and marketing; very few other hardware makers do. What's remarkable is that Apple has been using the same playbook for decades now, and nobody else has quite figured it out. It's the Nike playbook (Steve Jobs once said that he learned a lot from Nike's example). Don't market your tech specs; market your lifestyle. Apple's competitors are still running commercials about the dimensions, specifications, and miscellaneous stats of their devices. Such commercials basically announce "Hey consumers, here's a commodity. For the time being, it's slightly differentiated from other, more or less interchangeable commodities by way of some wonky stats you don't understand. Please buy it." Apple commercials, by contrast, show use cases and lifestyles. They use metaphorical and superlative language. That stuff works. It establishes an emotional bond with the consumer. Apple commercials aren't even really about Apple; they're about making consumers feel cool, special, hip, and creative because they use Apple products. It's the ultimate in feel-good messaging. Seriously: watch a Motorola Droid RAZR commercial, then watch an iPhone commercial. The difference is extraordinary.

pinaceae 15y ago
you're wrong. your comment is typical for tech-circles, but completely wrong. Apple understands products. Apple invests heavily into really good design, usability and compatibility. Their stuff WORKS, out of the box, without any fiddling. their products stay useful for a long time, longer than any crap of their competitors. This is what makes Apple successful. And it is clear why many "nerds" just don't get it - cause it means in reverse that they are wrong and the tools hey're building are second rate. such a nerdy thing to reduce apple to "good marketing". just like SJ was just a great "showman". It is people like you (sorry) that make Apple's competition looks like the clowns they are. You think a great ad would suddenly make Motorola sell more than Apple? Consumers are NOT idiots. They understand quality and value. They reward that with loyalty and word of mouth advertising. MS has understood this now and is trying hard with WP7. Let's see how that goes. They are lucky XBox 360 competed against Sony, not Apple.
- jonnathanson 15y ago
  "Apple understands products. Apple invests heavily into really good design, usability and compatibility. Their stuff WORKS, out of the box, without any fiddling. their products stay useful for a long time, longer than any crap of their competitors." This is not mutually exclusive with what I am saying. The two go hand in hand. Of course Apple focuses on product. But as far as its consumer messaging strategy goes, it talks about that product in a very specific, lifestyle-oriented way. Obviously it wouldn't be able to talk that way about its products if it products weren't great. "such a nerdy thing to reduce apple to "good marketing". just like SJ was just a great "showman". This is not at all what I said, and if that's the impression I gave you, then I'm sorry for not having been clear enough. But you're taking what I said in a tangent that was never intended. I am not "reducing" Apple's success to marketing, but rather, am explaining why consumers seem to have a love for Apple that they don't for its competitors (in response to the grandparent comment about not understanding why consumers have an emotional bond with Apple). Marketing and product reinforce one another for Apple; it's not one to the exclusion of the other. "think a great ad would suddenly make Motorola sell more than Apple?" Again, you're pretty wildly misinterpreting my post and making inferences that just aren't there. I'm not sure what else to tell you. Either I wasn't being clear enough, or you misread me, or some combination of the two. But I'm not saying any of what you're accusing me of saying. At all.

michaelcampbell 15y ago

I watched an interesting show on cults and what chemical/neurological things happen in the brain with respect to cults a few years ago, and how corporations have tried to foster this for brand loyalty. What stuck in my memory (perhaps incorrectly) is how few have actually done it. The examples they gave were only, if memory serves; Coke, Nike, Apple, VW, and more ephemerally, Linux.

victork2 15y ago

I could not agree more. I just don't get the connection that people feel with companies like they are their friend or something. Hell, I only care that my company earns money to keep my job. Apple people, more than everybody else, feel insulted and compelled to convince you that Apple products are "THE BEST" (totally ignoring that people have different use of computers). Just look at his final line: "Make the best damn product out there, charge a profitable price, and win the world." -> The "best damn product" seriously ? Is there ONE best product ? I just don't get it...

bradleyland 15y ago

I find the disassociation of corporations and people strange. Corporations are made up of people. Those people have a set of ideas that govern the direction they take their company. As corporations grow larger, they typically disassociate by nature. Megacorps like AT&T, Comcast, etc intentionally diassociate with their customers in order to reduce costs. The depersonalization of customer service is probably the best example. I think what drives consumers' connection to Apple is that they have intentionally avoided the customer disassociation model of business. Apple incorporates their customer idea in to their products and their advertising. Apple's products are opinionated. Think about that last statement for a moment. Opinion matters. Our opinions are a large part of our identity, and humans are inherently tribal. We associate with those who share our opinion. This is observable in everything from politics to commenting on HN. Writing that expresses strong opinion typically solicits the greatest number of comments. As a corollary, no one likes soft writing. We use terms like "wish washy" and "waffling". It is no coincidence that Apple's users are their greatest advocates. Apple has created a company and products that allows me to identify with them. I won't be shamed for doing so.

mkr-hn 15y ago

I've noticed the same thing. I get downvoted quick any time I make a fair and carefully worded comment about Apple that isn't glowing, and the comment stays gray until someone with a cooler head comes along.

alain94040 15y ago

It may not be my soulmate, but some companies do change the world (or at least try), and others don't. Have you ever seen a 4-year old try an iPad? Such experience was just not thinkable 10 years ago. A company had to try to build it and make it happen. A lot more companies didn't bother and just produced more gray boxes (think Dell). Therefore I am entitled to feel a stronger sense of satisfaction with Apple than with Dell. (*) to their credit, Dell did play a significant part in bringing computing to the masses

joebadmo 15y ago
I'm not convinced that that's the source of identification people feel with Apple. There are certainly other organizations that make a bigger and more overt "difference" than Apple, no?
huggyface 15y ago
"Have you ever seen a 4-year old try an iPad? Such experience was just not thinkable 10 years ago." Have you seen a 4-year old try a Windows machine? Honestly, I'm unsure whether people are just grossly underestimating children, or they never bothered giving them the outlet before. My four year old is a master of Windows 7. He has no problem with Vista before, going back to when he was two. He loads the browser, knows his favorite sites, uses YouTube, plays games on CBC Kids, etc. As did my two older children. My one year old hops up on the PC and moves the mouse, clicking on things of interest on the screen. I just don't get the notion that kids and the iPad are some magical combination. Kids are brilliant, at a very young age, and the only reason the kids and the iPad/phone/pod stories get play is that it plays into the mythology surrounding Apple.
- alain94040 15y ago
  Substitute a 4 year old by a 2 year old and let me know how Windows 7 works for you. If you give me another counter-example, keep going lower in age. I guarantee there is a point when touch beats click for toddlers.

scorpion032 15y ago

> It's a corporation folks, a wildly successful one, but that's it. It's not your buddy, your soulmate, nor your friend. Who do you think of when someone speaks about Apple? Who defined what it is, really. If he embodies the ideals you appreciate, it really is personal.

shmerl 15y ago

Yes, I find it strange, that when it comes to Apple, some people who are reasonable otherwise simply stop thinking rationally, and don't hear any real arguments. So it really can be a waste of time trying to reason with such kind of people.

generators 15y ago

its people's hero making ability that inspires people. ignoring a success will not going to help anyone.