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It's crazy. I know a Russian guy who is exactly like this; I debate with him all the time. Almost every night. About the war. Bluntly invested in winning, regar

It's crazy. I know a Russian guy who is exactly like this; I debate with him all the time. Almost every night. About the war. Bluntly invested in winning, regardless of what the system looks like; even admitting that it's a terrible system; using weak arguments for why people need structural dominance, while simultaneously arguing in favor of "the people" - (and using a historical American failings as a way to draw false equivalences). It's all chess when you grow up somewhere with nothing to gain. Or another way of saying it is, it's possible for a polity to never improve itself but give the illusion of relative improvement, if it can poison its enemies down to its own level or lower. This, unfortunately, is the same mentality we're dealing with now. [edit] Even so, he still betrays that curious overconfidence in the power of central planning...

jjtheblunt 4y ago
I believe you, and as a counterpoint I've known many Russians and they uniformly were _not_ like the Russian guy you know. Those I knew expressly mocked the incompetence of letting essentially mobsters pretend to run a country (their country). It reminded me of a much larger scale version of old mobster tales from big cities in the US, long before my time.
- Insanity 4y ago
  As with everything you indeed can not generalize for an entire population. - I’m in the same boat as you with my Russian friends and acquaintances :)
- jareklupinski 4y ago
  basically my feeling when I logged into Experian today they are offering a service where they would attempt to erase your identity from a list of data aggregators, lest that info is used by "bad actors" gee i wonder who gave those aggregators my info in the first place... "would be a real shame if any of them used your unlocked credit score.... oh you have to pay to lock that too :^) "
rexreed 4y ago
The over-confidence in clearly irrational positions, the bluster and bluffing and bullying are all coping mechanisms for what their brains detect as cognitive dissonance. "How can my life be so bad, dreary, miserable, and inadequate?" "It must not be my situation, but it must be everyone else, so I will fight everyone else, as I can't change my situation." Rather than improve their own lot, they seek to destroy other's, because improvement is so difficult, if not impossible, and destruction is just so much easier.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  One should ask, though, what makes improvement impossible.
  - rexreed 4y ago
    A rational person would indeed ask that. Is that what we're dealing with tho?
    - anigbrowl 4y ago
      What I mean is, when dealing with an irrational or antirational person, who is behaving this way because other kinds of action are impossible, we should ask what constrains them. If they are not actually in control of their circumstances, then we can't really pooh-pooh their irrationality because they are not free to choose. We like to assume that we are all masters of our own circumstances and can deal with any obstacle or misfortune by adjusting ourselves to match it, but this presumes a degree of autonomy that does not always exist in fact.
    - konart 4y ago
      >Is that what we're dealing with tho? Assuming both side have the same information? No. But this is would be a very strange assumption.
  - _siis 4y ago
    Well just from my own personal research (which is not nearly as thorough as I'd like), structurally any central power structure receives little benefit from division of labor and the main driver that allows it to work and greese the wheels are corruption, which generally promotes oligopoly or monopoly. Then you have the economic calculation problem, inability to adjust to shortages because the economy is not self-moderating, low to zero visibility (and shame) so responsible parties may not communicate to enact change rapidly or admit there's a problem until its had significant cost. Generally speaking, there is also a lot of indoctrination, and many who grow up in those places see the only solution to failures of socialism as more socialism because it failed because there simply wasn't enough, and it is after all about the group over the whole with identity politics. Improvement is impossible because failures can't be acknowledged or reconciled rationally. Structurally over time its a fundamentally unstable system as people age out of positions of power, newer generations may not be properly educated (they all drink the same coolaid). Rational pragmatic and constructive thought is kind of a requirement to improve. There's also usually a good portion of the population used as disadvantaged labor that supports an aristocratic elite.
illwrks 4y ago
A friend of a friend is exactly like this. Extremely skewed opinions on 'facts'. Whenever I meet them I avoid any topic to do with politics or the war, I just don't have the time or patience, they are too far down the rabbit hole. An American lady I know, her elderly mother was to the same extreme with Trump in the US... Social media and propaganda is a curse.
sorokod 4y ago
Because "almost every night" I assume he is not mobilized. Why would that be so?
- Luc 4y ago
  300k mobilized in a population of 143 million, so about 2 per thousand.
  - sorokod 4y ago
    A person with moral backbone should not be swayed by mere statistics. The official military along with the PMCs welcome volunteers.
  - lnsru 4y ago
    That’s official numbers. There is no chance to check really how many were mobilized. Add Wagner prisoners and one can’t tell anymore anything.
- watwut 4y ago
  He might simply live in region that mobilized less. Of live abroad. Most of mobilization happen in poor peripheral regions. Moscow and surrounding mobilizes much less.
  - sorokod 4y ago
    For sure, but a person with principles should act on them, otherwise they are just words.
    - watwut 4y ago
      But none of his principles implies he should go fight to war. He wants Russia win, but wanting particular outcome does not imply joining army. There is nothing special about that either. I wanted ISIS to loose, I never joined any legions. I want Ukraine to win, but I am not going there to fight either. If he claimed that not going is wrong, then he would be hypocrite. But it sounds more of "I want Russia to win and I accept human sacrifices along the way. That sux for them, but it is what it is" sort of attitude. Not exactly admirable, but also does not imply he should be volunteering.
rasz 4y ago
Good documentary about the level of brainwashing in ru Disconnection | A film by Andrey Loshak (Разрыв связи | Фильм Андрея Лошака)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qmQs2LbnaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qmQs2LbnaE [english subs]
- noduerme 4y ago
  This was excellent. Thank you. I'm going to try to get my Russian "debate partner" to watch it, although it's probably pointless.

jjtheblunt 4y ago

I believe you, and as a counterpoint I've known many Russians and they uniformly were _not_ like the Russian guy you know. Those I knew expressly mocked the incompetence of letting essentially mobsters pretend to run a country (their country). It reminded me of a much larger scale version of old mobster tales from big cities in the US, long before my time.

Insanity 4y ago
As with everything you indeed can not generalize for an entire population. - I’m in the same boat as you with my Russian friends and acquaintances :)
jareklupinski 4y ago
basically my feeling when I logged into Experian today they are offering a service where they would attempt to erase your identity from a list of data aggregators, lest that info is used by "bad actors" gee i wonder who gave those aggregators my info in the first place... "would be a real shame if any of them used your unlocked credit score.... oh you have to pay to lock that too :^) "

rexreed 4y ago

The over-confidence in clearly irrational positions, the bluster and bluffing and bullying are all coping mechanisms for what their brains detect as cognitive dissonance. "How can my life be so bad, dreary, miserable, and inadequate?" "It must not be my situation, but it must be everyone else, so I will fight everyone else, as I can't change my situation." Rather than improve their own lot, they seek to destroy other's, because improvement is so difficult, if not impossible, and destruction is just so much easier.

anigbrowl 4y ago
One should ask, though, what makes improvement impossible.
- rexreed 4y ago
  A rational person would indeed ask that. Is that what we're dealing with tho?
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    What I mean is, when dealing with an irrational or antirational person, who is behaving this way because other kinds of action are impossible, we should ask what constrains them. If they are not actually in control of their circumstances, then we can't really pooh-pooh their irrationality because they are not free to choose. We like to assume that we are all masters of our own circumstances and can deal with any obstacle or misfortune by adjusting ourselves to match it, but this presumes a degree of autonomy that does not always exist in fact.
  - konart 4y ago
    >Is that what we're dealing with tho? Assuming both side have the same information? No. But this is would be a very strange assumption.
- _siis 4y ago
  Well just from my own personal research (which is not nearly as thorough as I'd like), structurally any central power structure receives little benefit from division of labor and the main driver that allows it to work and greese the wheels are corruption, which generally promotes oligopoly or monopoly. Then you have the economic calculation problem, inability to adjust to shortages because the economy is not self-moderating, low to zero visibility (and shame) so responsible parties may not communicate to enact change rapidly or admit there's a problem until its had significant cost. Generally speaking, there is also a lot of indoctrination, and many who grow up in those places see the only solution to failures of socialism as more socialism because it failed because there simply wasn't enough, and it is after all about the group over the whole with identity politics. Improvement is impossible because failures can't be acknowledged or reconciled rationally. Structurally over time its a fundamentally unstable system as people age out of positions of power, newer generations may not be properly educated (they all drink the same coolaid). Rational pragmatic and constructive thought is kind of a requirement to improve. There's also usually a good portion of the population used as disadvantaged labor that supports an aristocratic elite.

illwrks 4y ago

A friend of a friend is exactly like this. Extremely skewed opinions on 'facts'. Whenever I meet them I avoid any topic to do with politics or the war, I just don't have the time or patience, they are too far down the rabbit hole. An American lady I know, her elderly mother was to the same extreme with Trump in the US... Social media and propaganda is a curse.

sorokod 4y ago

Because "almost every night" I assume he is not mobilized. Why would that be so?

Luc 4y ago
300k mobilized in a population of 143 million, so about 2 per thousand.
- sorokod 4y ago
  A person with moral backbone should not be swayed by mere statistics. The official military along with the PMCs welcome volunteers.
- lnsru 4y ago
  That’s official numbers. There is no chance to check really how many were mobilized. Add Wagner prisoners and one can’t tell anymore anything.
watwut 4y ago
He might simply live in region that mobilized less. Of live abroad. Most of mobilization happen in poor peripheral regions. Moscow and surrounding mobilizes much less.
- sorokod 4y ago
  For sure, but a person with principles should act on them, otherwise they are just words.
  - watwut 4y ago
    But none of his principles implies he should go fight to war. He wants Russia win, but wanting particular outcome does not imply joining army. There is nothing special about that either. I wanted ISIS to loose, I never joined any legions. I want Ukraine to win, but I am not going there to fight either. If he claimed that not going is wrong, then he would be hypocrite. But it sounds more of "I want Russia to win and I accept human sacrifices along the way. That sux for them, but it is what it is" sort of attitude. Not exactly admirable, but also does not imply he should be volunteering.

rasz 4y ago

Good documentary about the level of brainwashing in ru Disconnection | A film by Andrey Loshak (Разрыв связи | Фильм Андрея Лошака)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qmQs2LbnaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qmQs2LbnaE [english subs]

noduerme 4y ago
This was excellent. Thank you. I'm going to try to get my Russian "debate partner" to watch it, although it's probably pointless.