6 ms·

There are an unusual number of comments from new accounts making disingenuous arguments on this post. I wonder who is behind the astroturfing. The answer to "w

by Zak 4y ago

There are an unusual number of comments from new accounts making disingenuous arguments on this post. I wonder who is behind the astroturfing. The answer to "what else should we do about bad people doing bad things?" is, of course how we usually catch people doing bad things: old-fashioned detective work. It involves taking reports of suspicious or illegal acts, interviewing witnesses and associates, requesting court orders to search or surveil specific people and places when there's evidence to do so, etc.... It doesn't scale. It's not supposed to.

f_devd 4y ago
> I wonder who is behind the astroturfing I noticed the same thing, but this really is a strange one since there isn't an obvious single party which would desire this legislation (from my limited view). External state-actors (e.g. China for proxy-policing), or non-democratic internal politicians/leaders (EU/EEA neo-facists?), is the only thing I can imagine.
- tpmx 4y ago
  More likely, TBH, in this case: Just one random person with a strong conviction and sub-par execution. There is a meta-effect going on here: Your complaining about the now vastly downvoted comments is now filling the top of this topic.
  - f_devd 4y ago
    You're probably right, seems like there hasn't been any new ones since the original influx. EDIT: never mind since posting this there have been a few more.
- pilsetnieks 4y ago
  It's a tired tale by now but stirring shit (whatever shit wherever it happens) is literally part of the Russian playbook [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
  - vuln 4y ago
    Really? Just the Russian playbook? No other country stirs shit up? No other country meddles in another country's affairs? No other country starts color revolutions to get someone they like to lead the country? No other country bombs another countries pipeline that serves "Allies"?
    - KptMarchewa 4y ago
      Yes, russia. And they don't even hide the threats: https://twitter.com/PMSimferopol/status/1634111915596173312 https://twitter.com/PMSimferopol/status/1634111915596173312
      - vuln 4y ago
        Neither does the US. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-07/biden-said-u-s-can-stop-nord-stream-2-if-russia-invades-ukraine https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-07/biden-sai...
        KptMarchewa 4y ago
        Turns out he did not even have to do anything. Russians did it themselves.
        vuln 4y ago
        > Russians did it themselves. Do you have a source? Seems like the US IC is claiming a pro Ukrainian group did it. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-intelligence-suggests-pro-ukrainian-group-sabotaged-nord-stream-pipelines-nyt-2023-03-07/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-intelligence-suggest...
        KptMarchewa 4y ago
        Sounds like German media claims that US IC claims something.
- halfjoking 4y ago
  Foreign Malign Influence Center? They seem so hostile to free speech, I’d be surprised if they weren’t astroturfing stuff like this. https://mobile.twitter.com/NameRedacted247/status/1628847554971435010 https://mobile.twitter.com/NameRedacted247/status/1628847554...
  - flangola7 4y ago
    That's a US entity, not EU. I have my skeptic goggles on too because the accounts and comments on that whole thread are a rat's nest of typical Twitter right wing garbage. There's even people tagging Elon Musk who seem to think he protects anything more than speech he agrees with.
- theusgovt 4y ago
  [flagged]
- rocqua 4y ago
  The parties that want this are government agencies that want more power. Perhaps the companies that plan to support the government agencies in this work. There is a lot of money and political power that wants these laws. But they don't seem likely to be running any campaigns as obvious as astroturfing. Isn't it more likely that the new commenters are people who want to remain anonymous?
- unity1001 4y ago
  > there isn't an obvious single party which would desire this legislation Holy cow. Its amazing how the general public is so unaware of how the mechanism for lobbying for laws work: This 'pedophilia! think of the children!' thing along with its accompanying laws came to the public agenda at the same time in both sides of the Atlantic. In the US, in the Eu at the same time. And separately, in the UK. With various celebrities pushing it and certain segments in the respective parliaments introducting it all at the same time. In the same fashion that laws like ACTA, PIPA etc were pushed. Who wants it is pretty simple - the establishments want to spy on the citizens but they dont want the public stampede and ensuing fallout that laws like the Patriot act involves. If you would have any doubts about it, just look at what the UK establishment and its politicians say - having gotten used to get whatever they want regardless of what they say, they are directly saying "Just give us backdoors" to encryption software producers without bothering with the hassle of pedophilia. Which brings us to the below problem: > China for proxy-policing These people are able to commit all these evils, from patriot act to jailing whistleblowers, because the public rationalizes and justifies what they do and throws the blame and all the evils to outside just like you did. It wasnt China who pushed the patriot act. It wasnt China who spied on everyone on the planet as revealed by Snowden. It was our own establishments. And as long as people like you keep diverting the blame to outside like you have done, those who perpetrated such acts will keep getting bolder. ... Aside from all of these, there IS an actual party with a very specific interest that is pushing these laws, and the reason why it is doing this is so much sh*ttier than the above establishment reasons that you will want to gouge your eyes out: https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/13/clientside_scanning_csam_anderson/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/13/clientside_scanning_c... https://www.thorn.org/about-our-fight-against-sexual-exploitation-of-children/ https://www.thorn.org/about-our-fight-against-sexual-exploit... Ashton Kutcher is a founder of something called Thorn that sells spying software to chat services. He and his partner Demi Moore are pushing this pedophilia law on the Eu in order to be able to sell spying software to chat services. At the same time they are lobbying for client side spying, ie, spying on people from their browser. Washed up Hollywood actors trying to make money by destroying democracy...
  - f_devd 4y ago
    I do understand how lobbying works as you described, however the question remains with who specifically are "the establishments" and why are they so gung ho on it when the public backlash is visible from miles away. > throws the blame and all the evils to outside just like you did. I realise that China is unlikely the originator for the lobbying but the discussion is on who would likely support the movement, still I considered the internal actors as well as a potential driver. > It was our own establishments. So would you expect it to be like an aggregate of different government agencies that would post fallacious comments? EDIT: posted before the '...' edit, that part actually does make sense and is very shitty indeed
sva_ 4y ago
Scrolling down... You weren't lying. I've recently been pondering more and more in how far governments use social media to manipulate our perception. The astroturfing has been pretty shamelessly obvious recently (in particular on sites like Reddit.) On the other hand, since there seems to be so much going on, why aren't there any whistleblowers?
daveoc64 4y ago
Please remember the HN Guidelines: > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- causi 4y ago
  I mean yeah, but when there's a bunch of green accounts whose only comments are horrible corpo-speak takes on one single submission they're basically holding a sign that says "I am not a real HN commenter".
  - z3c0 4y ago
    This might be the one guideline that makes me uneasy. I get why it's in place - some people will call anybody that disagrees with them a shill or whatever - but to pretend it isn't happening while it so obviously is feels a bit immoral. At the very least, it's certainly complacent.
kneebonian 4y ago
His name is Sir Humphrey Appleby, aka the Deep State, aka the bureaucrats. Seriously watch the show Yes Minister, there has never been a show that does a better job at showing the ridiculousness that leads to these apparently horrible ideas that no one seems to like but seem to continue marching forward.
Zetice 4y ago
It’s likely just one person fwiw, HN is alarmingly bereft of anti-one-person-who-is-upset measures.
- codetrotter 4y ago
  Hmm, idk, I had two accounts in the past and I wasn’t even using them for anything nefarious, but I got a reply from dang asking me to not use multiple accounts, so I went back to using just one account. Seems from my experience that at least to some degree dang is on top of making sure each person has only one account. But again, the situation may be different when people intentionally try to do sketchy things. If someone uses separate browser sessions and separate VPN connections then there would not be much HN could do to discover that multiple accounts belong to the same person, except if the person with the accounts made the mistake of displaying voting ring behaviour, i.e. a number of accounts upvoting each other, and that sort of thing
  - Zetice 4y ago
    I promise you dang is in absolutely no way on top of any of this.
    - codetrotter 4y ago
      Then again, the most obvious way to combat this problem is to require a bunch of verifications, like providing your phone number and a scan of your passport/drivers license and a selfie and so on. And I am happy and thankful that HN does not require all ‘at.
- Zak 4y ago
  HN's best defense against that is probably that it doesn't take many flags from older accounts to kill a comment from a new account. Whether these accounts were one person with an axe to grind, trolling by someone who doesn't really believe the arguments they were making, or coordinated activity by an organization, none of the comments stayed up longer than 15 minutes.
chmod775 4y ago
> There are an unusual number of comments from new accounts making disingenuous arguments on this post. I wonder who is behind the astroturfing. The comments are so obviously going to elicit a negative response that a reasonable explanation would be that they're intentionally terrible. It might just be someone having a laugh - someone who is actually against this proposal. Either that or they're not sending their best and brightest...
mhitza 4y ago
I only see two fresh accounts in this thread which were deleted/flagged. Come back when a pro-Tor topic is posted and see then how many new accounts pop up :)
hulitu 4y ago
> I wonder who is behind the astroturfing. First rule of propaganda: look who will profit from this: The companies who sell personal data, politicians in power, maybe some 3 letter agencies, although they already have this data. Anyway, this is a good sign that humanity is too stupid to learn from history.

by Zak 4y ago

f_devd 4y ago

> I wonder who is behind the astroturfing I noticed the same thing, but this really is a strange one since there isn't an obvious single party which would desire this legislation (from my limited view). External state-actors (e.g. China for proxy-policing), or non-democratic internal politicians/leaders (EU/EEA neo-facists?), is the only thing I can imagine.

tpmx 4y ago
More likely, TBH, in this case: Just one random person with a strong conviction and sub-par execution. There is a meta-effect going on here: Your complaining about the now vastly downvoted comments is now filling the top of this topic.
- f_devd 4y ago
  You're probably right, seems like there hasn't been any new ones since the original influx. EDIT: never mind since posting this there have been a few more.
pilsetnieks 4y ago
It's a tired tale by now but stirring shit (whatever shit wherever it happens) is literally part of the Russian playbook [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
- vuln 4y ago
  Really? Just the Russian playbook? No other country stirs shit up? No other country meddles in another country's affairs? No other country starts color revolutions to get someone they like to lead the country? No other country bombs another countries pipeline that serves "Allies"?
  - KptMarchewa 4y ago
    Yes, russia. And they don't even hide the threats: https://twitter.com/PMSimferopol/status/1634111915596173312 https://twitter.com/PMSimferopol/status/1634111915596173312
    - vuln 4y ago
      Neither does the US. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-07/biden-said-u-s-can-stop-nord-stream-2-if-russia-invades-ukraine https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-07/biden-sai...
      - KptMarchewa 4y ago
        Turns out he did not even have to do anything. Russians did it themselves.
        vuln 4y ago
        > Russians did it themselves. Do you have a source? Seems like the US IC is claiming a pro Ukrainian group did it. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-intelligence-suggests-pro-ukrainian-group-sabotaged-nord-stream-pipelines-nyt-2023-03-07/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-intelligence-suggest...
        KptMarchewa 4y ago
        Sounds like German media claims that US IC claims something.
halfjoking 4y ago
Foreign Malign Influence Center? They seem so hostile to free speech, I’d be surprised if they weren’t astroturfing stuff like this. https://mobile.twitter.com/NameRedacted247/status/1628847554971435010 https://mobile.twitter.com/NameRedacted247/status/1628847554...
- flangola7 4y ago
  That's a US entity, not EU. I have my skeptic goggles on too because the accounts and comments on that whole thread are a rat's nest of typical Twitter right wing garbage. There's even people tagging Elon Musk who seem to think he protects anything more than speech he agrees with.
theusgovt 4y ago
[flagged]
rocqua 4y ago
The parties that want this are government agencies that want more power. Perhaps the companies that plan to support the government agencies in this work. There is a lot of money and political power that wants these laws. But they don't seem likely to be running any campaigns as obvious as astroturfing. Isn't it more likely that the new commenters are people who want to remain anonymous?
unity1001 4y ago
> there isn't an obvious single party which would desire this legislation Holy cow. Its amazing how the general public is so unaware of how the mechanism for lobbying for laws work: This 'pedophilia! think of the children!' thing along with its accompanying laws came to the public agenda at the same time in both sides of the Atlantic. In the US, in the Eu at the same time. And separately, in the UK. With various celebrities pushing it and certain segments in the respective parliaments introducting it all at the same time. In the same fashion that laws like ACTA, PIPA etc were pushed. Who wants it is pretty simple - the establishments want to spy on the citizens but they dont want the public stampede and ensuing fallout that laws like the Patriot act involves. If you would have any doubts about it, just look at what the UK establishment and its politicians say - having gotten used to get whatever they want regardless of what they say, they are directly saying "Just give us backdoors" to encryption software producers without bothering with the hassle of pedophilia. Which brings us to the below problem: > China for proxy-policing These people are able to commit all these evils, from patriot act to jailing whistleblowers, because the public rationalizes and justifies what they do and throws the blame and all the evils to outside just like you did. It wasnt China who pushed the patriot act. It wasnt China who spied on everyone on the planet as revealed by Snowden. It was our own establishments. And as long as people like you keep diverting the blame to outside like you have done, those who perpetrated such acts will keep getting bolder. ... Aside from all of these, there IS an actual party with a very specific interest that is pushing these laws, and the reason why it is doing this is so much sh*ttier than the above establishment reasons that you will want to gouge your eyes out: https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/13/clientside_scanning_csam_anderson/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/13/clientside_scanning_c... https://www.thorn.org/about-our-fight-against-sexual-exploitation-of-children/ https://www.thorn.org/about-our-fight-against-sexual-exploit... Ashton Kutcher is a founder of something called Thorn that sells spying software to chat services. He and his partner Demi Moore are pushing this pedophilia law on the Eu in order to be able to sell spying software to chat services. At the same time they are lobbying for client side spying, ie, spying on people from their browser. Washed up Hollywood actors trying to make money by destroying democracy...
- f_devd 4y ago
  I do understand how lobbying works as you described, however the question remains with who specifically are "the establishments" and why are they so gung ho on it when the public backlash is visible from miles away. > throws the blame and all the evils to outside just like you did. I realise that China is unlikely the originator for the lobbying but the discussion is on who would likely support the movement, still I considered the internal actors as well as a potential driver. > It was our own establishments. So would you expect it to be like an aggregate of different government agencies that would post fallacious comments? EDIT: posted before the '...' edit, that part actually does make sense and is very shitty indeed

sva_ 4y ago

Scrolling down... You weren't lying. I've recently been pondering more and more in how far governments use social media to manipulate our perception. The astroturfing has been pretty shamelessly obvious recently (in particular on sites like Reddit.) On the other hand, since there seems to be so much going on, why aren't there any whistleblowers?

daveoc64 4y ago

Please remember the HN Guidelines: > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

causi 4y ago
I mean yeah, but when there's a bunch of green accounts whose only comments are horrible corpo-speak takes on one single submission they're basically holding a sign that says "I am not a real HN commenter".
- z3c0 4y ago
  This might be the one guideline that makes me uneasy. I get why it's in place - some people will call anybody that disagrees with them a shill or whatever - but to pretend it isn't happening while it so obviously is feels a bit immoral. At the very least, it's certainly complacent.

kneebonian 4y ago

His name is Sir Humphrey Appleby, aka the Deep State, aka the bureaucrats. Seriously watch the show Yes Minister, there has never been a show that does a better job at showing the ridiculousness that leads to these apparently horrible ideas that no one seems to like but seem to continue marching forward.

Zetice 4y ago

It’s likely just one person fwiw, HN is alarmingly bereft of anti-one-person-who-is-upset measures.

codetrotter 4y ago
Hmm, idk, I had two accounts in the past and I wasn’t even using them for anything nefarious, but I got a reply from dang asking me to not use multiple accounts, so I went back to using just one account. Seems from my experience that at least to some degree dang is on top of making sure each person has only one account. But again, the situation may be different when people intentionally try to do sketchy things. If someone uses separate browser sessions and separate VPN connections then there would not be much HN could do to discover that multiple accounts belong to the same person, except if the person with the accounts made the mistake of displaying voting ring behaviour, i.e. a number of accounts upvoting each other, and that sort of thing
- Zetice 4y ago
  I promise you dang is in absolutely no way on top of any of this.
  - codetrotter 4y ago
    Then again, the most obvious way to combat this problem is to require a bunch of verifications, like providing your phone number and a scan of your passport/drivers license and a selfie and so on. And I am happy and thankful that HN does not require all ‘at.
Zak 4y ago
HN's best defense against that is probably that it doesn't take many flags from older accounts to kill a comment from a new account. Whether these accounts were one person with an axe to grind, trolling by someone who doesn't really believe the arguments they were making, or coordinated activity by an organization, none of the comments stayed up longer than 15 minutes.

chmod775 4y ago

> There are an unusual number of comments from new accounts making disingenuous arguments on this post. I wonder who is behind the astroturfing. The comments are so obviously going to elicit a negative response that a reasonable explanation would be that they're intentionally terrible. It might just be someone having a laugh - someone who is actually against this proposal. Either that or they're not sending their best and brightest...

mhitza 4y ago

I only see two fresh accounts in this thread which were deleted/flagged. Come back when a pro-Tor topic is posted and see then how many new accounts pop up :)

hulitu 4y ago

> I wonder who is behind the astroturfing. First rule of propaganda: look who will profit from this: The companies who sell personal data, politicians in power, maybe some 3 letter agencies, although they already have this data. Anyway, this is a good sign that humanity is too stupid to learn from history.