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it's not obvious to me how utopian this will feel as the percentage of (quite high powered) ebikes continues to grow. There is a chance that the golden age of c

by jibbit 4y ago

it's not obvious to me how utopian this will feel as the percentage of (quite high powered) ebikes continues to grow. There is a chance that the golden age of city cycling is over.

tokai 4y ago
Definitely. Road deaths of cyclists will rise with the adaptation of ebikes. Even with laws around it, the capabilities of the ebikes are muddied with mopeds, reversing the segregation of bikes and vehicles that has been achieved until now. The ebikes are very nice for some types of commuters, but I fear that they will help reverse positive trends in bike riding and adaptation.
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
Completely innacurate, you already have a metric tonne of motorbikes under 50cc (bromfietsen) riding in the same bike infrastructure as normal bicycles in the Netherlands. It has never stopped anyway from riding their bikes. There is a space and a use case for everything. Ebikes fill a gap, they increase commute 'radius' for a lot of people, allow elderly to ride when they wouldn't be able to with a normal bike, etc. \ Also in my opinion ebikes are going to be critical for us to role out the Dutch model in other locations that are not as insanely flat. I cycle everyday for school rounds and general errands on a normal 7 gear bike without batteries but even if they had the same bicycle infrastructure as the Netherlands, I would probably not do the same in hilly cities like Granada, or Bristol or Lisbon, because I would just be sweating all the time. Whatever idea you have of ebikes on steroids is simply niche and not what the average consumer buys as an ebike.
- tokai 4y ago
  Those 50cc motorbikes are slower in acceleration and lower in top speed than high powered ebikes. Without numbers is ridiculous to claim anything on how the adaptation is between high and low powered ebikes. Here in Copenhagen a lot of them on the streets are high power and there is not real oversight on that sold ebikes are low powered enought to count as ebikes an not e-mopeds.
  - DoingIsLearning 4y ago
    My point is most consumers are not buying race ebikes, they are buying ebikes to cope with longer distances and to do hill assist. Apart from the occasional package couriers I just don't see people hauling ass on ebikes on an actual road with traffic. Electric mopeds is another problem though.
- jibbit 4y ago
  I’m absolutely clueless how my uncertainty can be ‘inaccurate’
hytdstd 4y ago
Really? I ride a bike and I can't wait for lots of people to use e-bikes to get around. Research shows that "the more people ride bikes, the safer all bike riders are on the streets." [0]. Also... I'd much rather get hit by an ebike than a car. [0]: https://www.calbike.org/studies-show-increases-in-biking-and-bike-safety-in-numbers/ https://www.calbike.org/studies-show-increases-in-biking-and...
- vanilla_nut 4y ago
  Based on my experience with dangerous ebike riders in NYC, I do think this is a problem. It's just that it's so much less of a problem than cars that it's hard to care about this "gotcha" when we talk about bike infrastructure. Assuming any US cities focus on bikeability, by the time we've figured things out enough to actually worry about this problem, hopefully the Dutch will have figured it out. I know ebikes are a very real concern in the Netherlands and there's a lot of active lawmaking on the subject right now.
yvdriess 4y ago
The problem implied by the parent post is probably the danger that the speed pedelecs or e-scooters pose to low speed cyclists and pedestrians. I'm not familiar with the Netherlands, but in Belgium legislation was introduced to tackle that problem. Above 25km/h, they are essentially considered motorcycles, requiring a similar driver's license and follow the motorcycle rules of the road. (https://www.vlaanderen.be/speedpedelec https://www.vlaanderen.be/speedpedelec) E-scooters are limited to 25km/h and follow cyclist rules, e.g. they cannot be used on sidewalks. The number of speed pedelecs in the Flanders region is relatively high, because many companies have started offering leased e-bikes as a way to do tax optimization. (sadly, the same tax incentive exists for car leasing, so the number of cars on the road is still too damn high)
- gattilorenz 4y ago
  Same in NL, and they require an insurance too, which probably helps limit their usage in practice

by jibbit 4y ago

it's not obvious to me how utopian this will feel as the percentage of (quite high powered) ebikes continues to grow. There is a chance that the golden age of city cycling is over.

tokai 4y ago

Definitely. Road deaths of cyclists will rise with the adaptation of ebikes. Even with laws around it, the capabilities of the ebikes are muddied with mopeds, reversing the segregation of bikes and vehicles that has been achieved until now. The ebikes are very nice for some types of commuters, but I fear that they will help reverse positive trends in bike riding and adaptation.

DoingIsLearning 4y ago

Completely innacurate, you already have a metric tonne of motorbikes under 50cc (bromfietsen) riding in the same bike infrastructure as normal bicycles in the Netherlands. It has never stopped anyway from riding their bikes. There is a space and a use case for everything. Ebikes fill a gap, they increase commute 'radius' for a lot of people, allow elderly to ride when they wouldn't be able to with a normal bike, etc. \ Also in my opinion ebikes are going to be critical for us to role out the Dutch model in other locations that are not as insanely flat. I cycle everyday for school rounds and general errands on a normal 7 gear bike without batteries but even if they had the same bicycle infrastructure as the Netherlands, I would probably not do the same in hilly cities like Granada, or Bristol or Lisbon, because I would just be sweating all the time. Whatever idea you have of ebikes on steroids is simply niche and not what the average consumer buys as an ebike.

tokai 4y ago
Those 50cc motorbikes are slower in acceleration and lower in top speed than high powered ebikes. Without numbers is ridiculous to claim anything on how the adaptation is between high and low powered ebikes. Here in Copenhagen a lot of them on the streets are high power and there is not real oversight on that sold ebikes are low powered enought to count as ebikes an not e-mopeds.
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  My point is most consumers are not buying race ebikes, they are buying ebikes to cope with longer distances and to do hill assist. Apart from the occasional package couriers I just don't see people hauling ass on ebikes on an actual road with traffic. Electric mopeds is another problem though.
jibbit 4y ago
I’m absolutely clueless how my uncertainty can be ‘inaccurate’

hytdstd 4y ago

Really? I ride a bike and I can't wait for lots of people to use e-bikes to get around. Research shows that "the more people ride bikes, the safer all bike riders are on the streets." [0]. Also... I'd much rather get hit by an ebike than a car. [0]: https://www.calbike.org/studies-show-increases-in-biking-and-bike-safety-in-numbers/ https://www.calbike.org/studies-show-increases-in-biking-and...

vanilla_nut 4y ago
Based on my experience with dangerous ebike riders in NYC, I do think this is a problem. It's just that it's so much less of a problem than cars that it's hard to care about this "gotcha" when we talk about bike infrastructure. Assuming any US cities focus on bikeability, by the time we've figured things out enough to actually worry about this problem, hopefully the Dutch will have figured it out. I know ebikes are a very real concern in the Netherlands and there's a lot of active lawmaking on the subject right now.

yvdriess 4y ago

The problem implied by the parent post is probably the danger that the speed pedelecs or e-scooters pose to low speed cyclists and pedestrians. I'm not familiar with the Netherlands, but in Belgium legislation was introduced to tackle that problem. Above 25km/h, they are essentially considered motorcycles, requiring a similar driver's license and follow the motorcycle rules of the road. (https://www.vlaanderen.be/speedpedelec https://www.vlaanderen.be/speedpedelec) E-scooters are limited to 25km/h and follow cyclist rules, e.g. they cannot be used on sidewalks. The number of speed pedelecs in the Flanders region is relatively high, because many companies have started offering leased e-bikes as a way to do tax optimization. (sadly, the same tax incentive exists for car leasing, so the number of cars on the road is still too damn high)

gattilorenz 4y ago
Same in NL, and they require an insurance too, which probably helps limit their usage in practice