4 ms·

> My meandering point is that: everyone has different life situations Yes, so it's not about preferences, it's not about the pros and cons, it's about not forc

> My meandering point is that: everyone has different life situations Yes, so it's not about preferences, it's not about the pros and cons, it's about not forcing people for needless suffering. Forcing people who want or need (professionally or personally) to work with other people at home is absurd, and forcing people who provide better work at home (for jobs were it makes no difference to be in office) to commute and work in an open space just to reassure bosses is as absurd.

3np 4y ago
Sure. So some people will work for remote-first companies and some people will for for office-first companies. There's no one-size-fits all and different companies will work with different models. You're not forced to work at any particular company and no company should be expected to be the right place for all profiles. (Within that the employer of course does have responsibilities to accommodate employee differentiating needs, some of which is in scope of regulation and contracts)
- shakes_mcjunkie 4y ago
  > You're not forced to work at any particular company This is just false. People can be stuck at a company for a variety of reasons.
  - shanebellone 4y ago
    Stuck != Force
    - shakes_mcjunkie 4y ago
      Functionally what's the difference?
      - shanebellone 4y ago
        The former represents self-limitation. Edit: Unless one finds themself forcefully bound and therefore literally stuck.
  - prepend 4y ago
    I’ve never met a good programmer who didn’t always have a trail of unsolicited job offers following them. Obviously there are many situations, but I think many people can be selective about where they work.
    - drdec 4y ago
      You don't meet those good programmers because they are bad at networking. You are much more likely to meet the ones that are good at networking.
    - shard 4y ago
      And what does that mean for the largest group in the bell curve: the medium skilled programmer, who does ok but nonmagical work? Not everyone has the ability to be one or two standard deviations above the median.
      - bluefirebrand 4y ago
        Trust me they are being pursued by recruiters too Because recruiters can't tell the difference.
        CydeWeys 4y ago
        I've been pursued 10X more by recruiters ever since I've had Google on my resume. That they can tell, and I'll say that Google did a pretty good job of interviewing back in 2014.
      - jen20 4y ago
        I’m not convinced software engineering “skill” actually follows a normal distribution. People tend to have a huge impact, either positive or negative.
        3np 4y ago
        Skill does not necessarily manifest as impact. Someone having positive impact in one org will have negative impact in the same role on another.
- KronisLV 4y ago
  > There's no one-size-fits all and different companies will work with different models. You're not forced to work at any particular company and no company should be expected to be the right place for all profiles. I think that certain things being "normalized" industry wide has better outcomes, such as someone with a bad commute being able to speak up about working remotely could get rid of that, because remote work is considered commonplace now. Or maybe someone who has a busy home life could be able to spend more time in the office with reserved seating or get a coworking space funded. Remote work wasn't always "normal" and many didn't even see it as viable if not for the pandemic. Some are mandating returns to the office and a part of that extends to the shaping of the public perception of remote work, along exaggerated statements like "remote workers are worse at collaboration and don't even have the discipline to get dressed properly". While I don't follow Joshua Fluke, I think he had a few videos about similar statements on his YouTube channel a year or two back - sometimes outright misrepresentations of remote work, made to fit a particular perspective. But as long as people don't attempt to misrepresent what remote/in-office work is like, I think it's perfectly fine for organizations to structure themselves around whatever works for them. I just figured I'd mention the public perception aspect of it all, because sometimes stigma is harmful, e.g. how discussing one's compensation being "taboo" in some places can make one's perception of how much a certain kind of work is valued at inaccurate.
deepGem 4y ago
The consistent response I have gotten from managers is that more or less - people fake work sitting in their homes or work multiple jobs, and we collaborate better when we are sitting in an office. They use this as a force function to pull employees back into the office. I call BS on all of these. Employees faking work - your hiring problem. Employees working multiple jobs - again your problem, keep them occupied with meaningful work, if not bring in legality to protect your IP or whatever. AFAIK no one working multiple jobs are revealing IPs. In person collaboration - There may be some truth to this. High profile decisions are best taken in person, that being said during covid almost all decisions were done on Zoom not just for a week or so but for 2 years. Isn't that proof enough that even government level decisions can be done on Zoom ? Design discussions are best done on Miro/Google docs than on the whiteboard. Multiple people can collaborate efficiently on Miro, especially with an iPad. Not only this, every voice is heard instead of just 2-3 folks standing at a whiteboard and driving discussions. So many tools that make even pair programming or production debugging a breeze. I can pretty much negate every argument that mandates in person office presence. What I really vouch for is in person collaboration events once or twice a month where everyone comes together for a couple of days and hash out key issues and have a totally unstructured time for collaboration. And of course, have an office for those who want to come in to collaborate. Not everyone has a spacious home, people like to hang out with co-workers during lunch etc. However make it mandatory that all group meetings will be done on zoom, in order to provide equal participation opportunity to remote workers. These hybrid meetings with a few people in a room and a few on zoom are a total disaster.
- prepend 4y ago
  > people fake work sitting in their homes People fake work sitting in offices. If someone is going to fake work in the office, why not let them fake work from home and safe everyone a hassle. Or maybe incentivize real work over fake work. I worked with someone in the office next to mine for a few years and he was running a side business the whole time. It was bizarre how brazen he was, but people are interesting and varied. Remote work isn’t perfect, but it’s not like office work was perfect either. It’s like showing an example of a welfare cheat and saying “we can’t give welfare to help parents because people claim imaginary kids.”
paulcole 4y ago
I hate this idea that anyone is “forcing” anyone to do anything. And I see the word used so often in the remote work conversations. It’s like saying that Tesla “forces” people to work on electric cars. It’s what their business is! You’re not being forced to commute if your job is in-office anymore than you’re forced to eat canned asparagus if it’s the only vegetable in your cupboard. You can choose to not eat it or you can go to the store and buy something else. It doesn’t matter if you work better at home if your company is in office. And it doesn’t matter if it’s a job where being in office makes no difference. You either go to the office or look for a new job.
- NickBusey 4y ago
  I hate this idea that you either have to be happy with 100% of your job, or you have to find a new one.
  - paulcole 4y ago
    I’m not sure if you’re saying that I believe you have to be happy with 100% of your job or you have to find a new one? Because I definitely don’t: > You either go to the office or look for a new job. In case it’s not clear from that, I agree with you. There’s parts of every job that suck. You just have to choose whether the benefits outweighs those sucky parts.
  - shard 4y ago
    Yes. There are many reasons why someone would work at a job that doesn't make them happy, chief amongst those is supporting their family as best they can. Along those lines, I've had a coworker tell me: "Don't get good at doing something you hate."

3np 4y ago

Sure. So some people will work for remote-first companies and some people will for for office-first companies. There's no one-size-fits all and different companies will work with different models. You're not forced to work at any particular company and no company should be expected to be the right place for all profiles. (Within that the employer of course does have responsibilities to accommodate employee differentiating needs, some of which is in scope of regulation and contracts)

shakes_mcjunkie 4y ago
> You're not forced to work at any particular company This is just false. People can be stuck at a company for a variety of reasons.
- shanebellone 4y ago
  Stuck != Force
  - shakes_mcjunkie 4y ago
    Functionally what's the difference?
    - shanebellone 4y ago
      The former represents self-limitation. Edit: Unless one finds themself forcefully bound and therefore literally stuck.
- prepend 4y ago
  I’ve never met a good programmer who didn’t always have a trail of unsolicited job offers following them. Obviously there are many situations, but I think many people can be selective about where they work.
  - drdec 4y ago
    You don't meet those good programmers because they are bad at networking. You are much more likely to meet the ones that are good at networking.
  - shard 4y ago
    And what does that mean for the largest group in the bell curve: the medium skilled programmer, who does ok but nonmagical work? Not everyone has the ability to be one or two standard deviations above the median.
    - bluefirebrand 4y ago
      Trust me they are being pursued by recruiters too Because recruiters can't tell the difference.
      - CydeWeys 4y ago
        I've been pursued 10X more by recruiters ever since I've had Google on my resume. That they can tell, and I'll say that Google did a pretty good job of interviewing back in 2014.
    - jen20 4y ago
      I’m not convinced software engineering “skill” actually follows a normal distribution. People tend to have a huge impact, either positive or negative.
      - 3np 4y ago
        Skill does not necessarily manifest as impact. Someone having positive impact in one org will have negative impact in the same role on another.
KronisLV 4y ago
> There's no one-size-fits all and different companies will work with different models. You're not forced to work at any particular company and no company should be expected to be the right place for all profiles. I think that certain things being "normalized" industry wide has better outcomes, such as someone with a bad commute being able to speak up about working remotely could get rid of that, because remote work is considered commonplace now. Or maybe someone who has a busy home life could be able to spend more time in the office with reserved seating or get a coworking space funded. Remote work wasn't always "normal" and many didn't even see it as viable if not for the pandemic. Some are mandating returns to the office and a part of that extends to the shaping of the public perception of remote work, along exaggerated statements like "remote workers are worse at collaboration and don't even have the discipline to get dressed properly". While I don't follow Joshua Fluke, I think he had a few videos about similar statements on his YouTube channel a year or two back - sometimes outright misrepresentations of remote work, made to fit a particular perspective. But as long as people don't attempt to misrepresent what remote/in-office work is like, I think it's perfectly fine for organizations to structure themselves around whatever works for them. I just figured I'd mention the public perception aspect of it all, because sometimes stigma is harmful, e.g. how discussing one's compensation being "taboo" in some places can make one's perception of how much a certain kind of work is valued at inaccurate.

deepGem 4y ago

The consistent response I have gotten from managers is that more or less - people fake work sitting in their homes or work multiple jobs, and we collaborate better when we are sitting in an office. They use this as a force function to pull employees back into the office. I call BS on all of these. Employees faking work - your hiring problem. Employees working multiple jobs - again your problem, keep them occupied with meaningful work, if not bring in legality to protect your IP or whatever. AFAIK no one working multiple jobs are revealing IPs. In person collaboration - There may be some truth to this. High profile decisions are best taken in person, that being said during covid almost all decisions were done on Zoom not just for a week or so but for 2 years. Isn't that proof enough that even government level decisions can be done on Zoom ? Design discussions are best done on Miro/Google docs than on the whiteboard. Multiple people can collaborate efficiently on Miro, especially with an iPad. Not only this, every voice is heard instead of just 2-3 folks standing at a whiteboard and driving discussions. So many tools that make even pair programming or production debugging a breeze. I can pretty much negate every argument that mandates in person office presence. What I really vouch for is in person collaboration events once or twice a month where everyone comes together for a couple of days and hash out key issues and have a totally unstructured time for collaboration. And of course, have an office for those who want to come in to collaborate. Not everyone has a spacious home, people like to hang out with co-workers during lunch etc. However make it mandatory that all group meetings will be done on zoom, in order to provide equal participation opportunity to remote workers. These hybrid meetings with a few people in a room and a few on zoom are a total disaster.

prepend 4y ago
> people fake work sitting in their homes People fake work sitting in offices. If someone is going to fake work in the office, why not let them fake work from home and safe everyone a hassle. Or maybe incentivize real work over fake work. I worked with someone in the office next to mine for a few years and he was running a side business the whole time. It was bizarre how brazen he was, but people are interesting and varied. Remote work isn’t perfect, but it’s not like office work was perfect either. It’s like showing an example of a welfare cheat and saying “we can’t give welfare to help parents because people claim imaginary kids.”

paulcole 4y ago

I hate this idea that anyone is “forcing” anyone to do anything. And I see the word used so often in the remote work conversations. It’s like saying that Tesla “forces” people to work on electric cars. It’s what their business is! You’re not being forced to commute if your job is in-office anymore than you’re forced to eat canned asparagus if it’s the only vegetable in your cupboard. You can choose to not eat it or you can go to the store and buy something else. It doesn’t matter if you work better at home if your company is in office. And it doesn’t matter if it’s a job where being in office makes no difference. You either go to the office or look for a new job.

NickBusey 4y ago
I hate this idea that you either have to be happy with 100% of your job, or you have to find a new one.
- paulcole 4y ago
  I’m not sure if you’re saying that I believe you have to be happy with 100% of your job or you have to find a new one? Because I definitely don’t: > You either go to the office or look for a new job. In case it’s not clear from that, I agree with you. There’s parts of every job that suck. You just have to choose whether the benefits outweighs those sucky parts.
- shard 4y ago
  Yes. There are many reasons why someone would work at a job that doesn't make them happy, chief amongst those is supporting their family as best they can. Along those lines, I've had a coworker tell me: "Don't get good at doing something you hate."