4 ms·

I would find it more exciting if they started removing stuff from browsers, like legacy APIs and features with a very high attack surface.

Gigachad 4y ago
Such as?
- c7DJTLrn 4y ago
  Web Serial, WebUSB, WebVR to name a few.
  - andix 4y ago
    Why? Web usb and web serial are awesome for point of sale applications. To interface with scanners, receipt/ticket printers, rfid, … It’s so much easier to interface all that hardware just from an intranet website, instead of rolling out your own native code to thousands of different devices with different operating systems. We did that in the past, now they all just run chrome.
    - c7DJTLrn 4y ago
      This mentality of shoving everything in the browser because native is too hard or something is why we're in this mess. The web was invented as a presentation layer for information, not a VM that executes arbitrary remote code and can talk to hardware.
      - andix 4y ago
        So finding an easier way for hard problems is a sign of weakness? Lol…
        danmur 4y ago
        If you consider other consequences that result then it can be "weakness" to take an easier path. I won't use ridiculous examples, but many bad things have happened because it was easier.
      - vkou 4y ago
        > The web was invented as a presentation layer for information, not a VM that executes arbitrary remote code and can talk to hardware. The wheel was almost certainly not invented for the automobile, and yet, your car has four of them.
        paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Indeed. Yet you don't have wheels on your hat. So there's a point where using a tool solely based on ubiquity becomes absurd.
        vkou 4y ago
        People aren't doing this on the web for it's ubiquity, they are doing it because application distribution in the non-web ecosystem sucks. And because as bad as HTML and CSS is, native UI frameworks are even worse for most use cases. If you don't like how all the applications are built on the web, by all means, provide a native alternative that's better. Microsoft under Ballmer would have loved something like that, and spent a lot of money on trying to beat the web.
      - quickthrower2 4y ago
        That ship has sailed. It has turned into a big whale with shipping containers on it's back.
      - incrudible 4y ago
        The web is an application platform. It is really the remnants of its history as a document presentation platform that makes it add all these ultra high level declarative features that make up the bulk of the complexity of a browser. Ironically, these features, much more than scripting, also make up the bulk of the attack surface for browser exploits. Features like USB and VR are not the problem, you can just turn them off and everything still works, but one little change to CSS layouting can turn a web page into salad.
      - Gigachad 4y ago
        "This mess" being the greatest period of technology in history. Web browsers have become the most important and most empowering tools ever built. I'm really not convinced we should reverse that for some old man unix philosophy rant.
      - LeanderK 4y ago
        We are not building things for the technology sake. The user comes first, usability and accessibility is paramount. That's where we work around. History has shown is that it's easier to teach the browser new tricks than to make native easier to use. I want to: go to some website => solve problem => finish without extra steps. As a user I usually really don't care, I just am not interested in the problem and I am already spending too much time with stuff I am not interested in.
  - surajrmal 4y ago
    We use webusb and webserial in an internal tool as an easy way to distribute a cross platform way to flash an embedded device. It works great for supporting platforms which aren't used by the majority of our developers (Linux). I'm sure there are other ways to write a portable application, but the web route is a lot simpler. I really hope we never remove these API surfaces from the web API surface.
- sdmike1 4y ago
  you could argue that flash fell under this category, but that also perfectly demonstrates how much of the web was made inaccessible as a result of removing it
- alphabet9000 4y ago
  SPA views transitions
dx034 4y ago
Not if it breaks old web pages out there. It's nice that we can still browse websites that haven't been updated for a decade or more.
- c7DJTLrn 4y ago
  Compile or download an older browser. We can't keep backwards compatibility forever or software is just going to get worse and worse.
  - TJSomething 4y ago
    You can't safely use old browsers on the internet. Heck, you can't really safely connect old anything to the internet.
    - jraph 4y ago
      > you can't really safely connect You can remove "safely" for old enough browsers. They will refuse to connect because of old certificates, or won't be able to understand new ciphers.
  - danmur 4y ago
    What do you mean, Windows is getting better and better :P
    - dx034 4y ago
      To be fair, they were the best example of backwards compatability for decades. They broke some of that with Windows 11 spec requirements, but it's still one of the things Microsoft is quite good at.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    There are lots of stuff out there where the browser cannot be updated.
  - account42 4y ago
andix 4y ago
Did you ever think about, that people may need some of the features you consider useless?

Gigachad 4y ago

Such as?

c7DJTLrn 4y ago
Web Serial, WebUSB, WebVR to name a few.
- andix 4y ago
  Why? Web usb and web serial are awesome for point of sale applications. To interface with scanners, receipt/ticket printers, rfid, … It’s so much easier to interface all that hardware just from an intranet website, instead of rolling out your own native code to thousands of different devices with different operating systems. We did that in the past, now they all just run chrome.
  - c7DJTLrn 4y ago
    This mentality of shoving everything in the browser because native is too hard or something is why we're in this mess. The web was invented as a presentation layer for information, not a VM that executes arbitrary remote code and can talk to hardware.
    - andix 4y ago
      So finding an easier way for hard problems is a sign of weakness? Lol…
      - danmur 4y ago
        If you consider other consequences that result then it can be "weakness" to take an easier path. I won't use ridiculous examples, but many bad things have happened because it was easier.
    - vkou 4y ago
      > The web was invented as a presentation layer for information, not a VM that executes arbitrary remote code and can talk to hardware. The wheel was almost certainly not invented for the automobile, and yet, your car has four of them.
      - paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Indeed. Yet you don't have wheels on your hat. So there's a point where using a tool solely based on ubiquity becomes absurd.
        vkou 4y ago
        People aren't doing this on the web for it's ubiquity, they are doing it because application distribution in the non-web ecosystem sucks. And because as bad as HTML and CSS is, native UI frameworks are even worse for most use cases. If you don't like how all the applications are built on the web, by all means, provide a native alternative that's better. Microsoft under Ballmer would have loved something like that, and spent a lot of money on trying to beat the web.
    - quickthrower2 4y ago
      That ship has sailed. It has turned into a big whale with shipping containers on it's back.
    - incrudible 4y ago
      The web is an application platform. It is really the remnants of its history as a document presentation platform that makes it add all these ultra high level declarative features that make up the bulk of the complexity of a browser. Ironically, these features, much more than scripting, also make up the bulk of the attack surface for browser exploits. Features like USB and VR are not the problem, you can just turn them off and everything still works, but one little change to CSS layouting can turn a web page into salad.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      "This mess" being the greatest period of technology in history. Web browsers have become the most important and most empowering tools ever built. I'm really not convinced we should reverse that for some old man unix philosophy rant.
    - LeanderK 4y ago
      We are not building things for the technology sake. The user comes first, usability and accessibility is paramount. That's where we work around. History has shown is that it's easier to teach the browser new tricks than to make native easier to use. I want to: go to some website => solve problem => finish without extra steps. As a user I usually really don't care, I just am not interested in the problem and I am already spending too much time with stuff I am not interested in.
- surajrmal 4y ago
  We use webusb and webserial in an internal tool as an easy way to distribute a cross platform way to flash an embedded device. It works great for supporting platforms which aren't used by the majority of our developers (Linux). I'm sure there are other ways to write a portable application, but the web route is a lot simpler. I really hope we never remove these API surfaces from the web API surface.
sdmike1 4y ago
you could argue that flash fell under this category, but that also perfectly demonstrates how much of the web was made inaccessible as a result of removing it
alphabet9000 4y ago
SPA views transitions

dx034 4y ago

Not if it breaks old web pages out there. It's nice that we can still browse websites that haven't been updated for a decade or more.

c7DJTLrn 4y ago
Compile or download an older browser. We can't keep backwards compatibility forever or software is just going to get worse and worse.
- TJSomething 4y ago
  You can't safely use old browsers on the internet. Heck, you can't really safely connect old anything to the internet.
  - jraph 4y ago
    > you can't really safely connect You can remove "safely" for old enough browsers. They will refuse to connect because of old certificates, or won't be able to understand new ciphers.
- danmur 4y ago
  What do you mean, Windows is getting better and better :P
  - dx034 4y ago
    To be fair, they were the best example of backwards compatability for decades. They broke some of that with Windows 11 spec requirements, but it's still one of the things Microsoft is quite good at.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  There are lots of stuff out there where the browser cannot be updated.
- account42 4y ago

andix 4y ago

Did you ever think about, that people may need some of the features you consider useless?