4 ms·

Some people don't have a home office, or even a basic desk + chair setup that's suitable for long hours of computer work. A colleague of mine prefers going to

Some people don't have a home office, or even a basic desk + chair setup that's suitable for long hours of computer work. A colleague of mine prefers going to the office because at home he's constantly distracted by kids. Another has literally injured himself due working from his kitchen in a bad position for a year. It's worse than RSI. He had to rehabilitate for half a year just to get back to 95% health, and even now whenever he concentrates for too long the pain comes back. One might say, "well they should arrange a suitable setup then". Not everyone has a home that's large enough. Besides, my experience is that most people don't have the discipline or will to do this properly, and as an employer you have to more or less force this upon employees (not even "recommend" is good enough). In the Netherlands, if employees — even office employees — injure themselves, then the employer is obliged to take care of them for max 2 years, even if the injury was not directly caused by the employer.

andersa 4y ago
The home office equipment can be bought from the higher salaries the companies are able to provide now that they don't need to waste as much money on office rent. Of course, getting a good chair is just as important as it used to be!
prmoustache 4y ago
> A colleague of mine prefers going to the office because at home he's constantly distracted by kids. Why aren't they at school?
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  School is until 14.30. And they have many holidays.
UweSchmidt 4y ago
Depending on circumstances, what you save on commuting could allow you to upgrade your living with an extra room. Commuting costs are easily underestimated but a honest look might reveal that they are substantial: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-...
- schwartzworld 4y ago
  Where I live, the people with long commutes are more likely to live outside the city in a house with an extra room. It's the urban apartment dwellers that don't have the extra space. An extra bedroom in most parts of metro Boston is like an extra $1000-1500, even in the close suburbs. An unlimited pass for public transit is $90/month. A blue bike annual membership is that much per year. It doesn't even come close.
zmmmmm 4y ago
> my experience is that most people don't have the discipline or will to do this This widely believed anecdotally driven piece of opinion-data was what COVID invalidated. Studies demonstrated no significant loss in productivity and in many cases increased productivity during WFH during covid - putting aside contexts where it was clearly unsuitable / suboptimal (people trapped in their houses with small kids, no appropriate equipment etc).
- arrowsmith 4y ago
  Perhaps the real lesson is that most people at most companies were vastly unproductive at the office to begin with, so working from home didn't risk losing very much.
- FooBarWidget 4y ago
  It is my personal experience at my own workplace. I literally saw with my own eyes that if I don't force employees to have a proper work environment, then they won't set one up by themselves, only to get back pain a few days later.
  - suprjami 4y ago
    Your sample size of one doesn't prove or disprove anything.
    - FooBarWidget 4y ago
      Your sample size of X also doesn't delegitimize my personal experience.
      - CapstanRoller 4y ago
        Your personal experience doesn't permit you to make sweeping generalizations about "most people"
lloeki 4y ago
> Another has literally injured himself due working from his kitchen in a bad position for a year. It's worse than RSI. He had to rehabilitate for half a year just to get back to 95% health, and even now whenever he concentrates for too long the pain comes back. I have literally injured myself due to working in offices: got back and chest pain because every piece of furniture from desk to chair was absolute garbage, each day hands, wrists, and forearms were in pain within minutes because of lousy keyboard and mouse, eyes crying so much I wanted to gouge them out because the screen was spectacularly bad (low contrast, low resolution, high minimum brightness, high latency) and lighting was the worst (single window giving into an artificially long room, overhead neon ceiling lighting flickering at mains frequency, no other lights). Of course it was open space, so to not be constantly distracted one isolates themselves with headphones and music for hours on end and whatnot. Most employees had at least two items each they bought on their own dime or brought from home (whether it was lights, screens, chairs, headphones, laptops...) to make it bearable. A coworker suffered from back pain and was put of commission for 6 months, came back feeling better, stayed two months... and was out again for 6. Another started to have ear ringing because of the constant music. At some point I felt terrible chest pain, like being hit by a truck, a piercing sensation from front to back, like being impaled by a javelin, couldn't raise arms, went out to try and catch my breath and legs gave in as I stepped outside. I thought I was having some heart attack of sorts but it was "merely" my chest and back muscles getting so tense over the years that they cramped and would not let go, even if it meant choking to death. Took months to realise, years to undo the damage. This experience was a tad extreme but the principles are generally consistent across many many workplaces: employers buy the cheapest hardware, rent the cheapest place, and throw the coding masses in there, where employees try to make the best with what they are given and what they can bring from home. The tech startup bubble where employees get the best hardware and working conditions is the exception, not the rule. So to sum up: employees suffer commuting and terrible work conditions that they accomodate for with their own gear from home, only to end up isolating themselves once on site, for the benefit of having two times 10min face to face watercooler talk + 45min lunch per day. No wonder so many want to skip the nonsense, work from home, and do the occasional social thing outside of the office. Ultimately I guess offices are part about control over employees and part status symbols for companies (as in, "we rented that big place", not as in "you'll have the best working conditions")

andersa 4y ago

The home office equipment can be bought from the higher salaries the companies are able to provide now that they don't need to waste as much money on office rent. Of course, getting a good chair is just as important as it used to be!

prmoustache 4y ago

> A colleague of mine prefers going to the office because at home he's constantly distracted by kids. Why aren't they at school?

FooBarWidget 4y ago
School is until 14.30. And they have many holidays.

UweSchmidt 4y ago

Depending on circumstances, what you save on commuting could allow you to upgrade your living with an extra room. Commuting costs are easily underestimated but a honest look might reveal that they are substantial: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-...

schwartzworld 4y ago
Where I live, the people with long commutes are more likely to live outside the city in a house with an extra room. It's the urban apartment dwellers that don't have the extra space. An extra bedroom in most parts of metro Boston is like an extra $1000-1500, even in the close suburbs. An unlimited pass for public transit is $90/month. A blue bike annual membership is that much per year. It doesn't even come close.

zmmmmm 4y ago

> my experience is that most people don't have the discipline or will to do this This widely believed anecdotally driven piece of opinion-data was what COVID invalidated. Studies demonstrated no significant loss in productivity and in many cases increased productivity during WFH during covid - putting aside contexts where it was clearly unsuitable / suboptimal (people trapped in their houses with small kids, no appropriate equipment etc).

arrowsmith 4y ago
Perhaps the real lesson is that most people at most companies were vastly unproductive at the office to begin with, so working from home didn't risk losing very much.
FooBarWidget 4y ago
It is my personal experience at my own workplace. I literally saw with my own eyes that if I don't force employees to have a proper work environment, then they won't set one up by themselves, only to get back pain a few days later.
- suprjami 4y ago
  Your sample size of one doesn't prove or disprove anything.
  - FooBarWidget 4y ago
    Your sample size of X also doesn't delegitimize my personal experience.
    - CapstanRoller 4y ago
      Your personal experience doesn't permit you to make sweeping generalizations about "most people"

lloeki 4y ago

> Another has literally injured himself due working from his kitchen in a bad position for a year. It's worse than RSI. He had to rehabilitate for half a year just to get back to 95% health, and even now whenever he concentrates for too long the pain comes back. I have literally injured myself due to working in offices: got back and chest pain because every piece of furniture from desk to chair was absolute garbage, each day hands, wrists, and forearms were in pain within minutes because of lousy keyboard and mouse, eyes crying so much I wanted to gouge them out because the screen was spectacularly bad (low contrast, low resolution, high minimum brightness, high latency) and lighting was the worst (single window giving into an artificially long room, overhead neon ceiling lighting flickering at mains frequency, no other lights). Of course it was open space, so to not be constantly distracted one isolates themselves with headphones and music for hours on end and whatnot. Most employees had at least two items each they bought on their own dime or brought from home (whether it was lights, screens, chairs, headphones, laptops...) to make it bearable. A coworker suffered from back pain and was put of commission for 6 months, came back feeling better, stayed two months... and was out again for 6. Another started to have ear ringing because of the constant music. At some point I felt terrible chest pain, like being hit by a truck, a piercing sensation from front to back, like being impaled by a javelin, couldn't raise arms, went out to try and catch my breath and legs gave in as I stepped outside. I thought I was having some heart attack of sorts but it was "merely" my chest and back muscles getting so tense over the years that they cramped and would not let go, even if it meant choking to death. Took months to realise, years to undo the damage. This experience was a tad extreme but the principles are generally consistent across many many workplaces: employers buy the cheapest hardware, rent the cheapest place, and throw the coding masses in there, where employees try to make the best with what they are given and what they can bring from home. The tech startup bubble where employees get the best hardware and working conditions is the exception, not the rule. So to sum up: employees suffer commuting and terrible work conditions that they accomodate for with their own gear from home, only to end up isolating themselves once on site, for the benefit of having two times 10min face to face watercooler talk + 45min lunch per day. No wonder so many want to skip the nonsense, work from home, and do the occasional social thing outside of the office. Ultimately I guess offices are part about control over employees and part status symbols for companies (as in, "we rented that big place", not as in "you'll have the best working conditions")