4 ms·

From those examples, I think you’re maybe also running up against people generally having a low threshold for giving a stranger on the internet the benefit of t

From those examples, I think you’re maybe also running up against people generally having a low threshold for giving a stranger on the internet the benefit of the doubt. It’s hard to be surprised that “eugenics, but the good kind, just hear me out!” and “state’s rights, but not the disingenuous lost cause kind, just hear me out!” are a tough sell with complete strangers who have no prior reason to trust you or be interested in your opinions.

kristopolous 4y ago
correct! Btw, I removed them from my examples, didn't want to "discuss" that here. I'm kind of a history nerd and it's like a fishing hook with delicious bait when I see stuff like that. "Oh wait! You think it was just the south that argued states rights?! Actually (brings up fugitive slave clause jurisprudence)" Or how manner and conduct books of the 1800s, eugenics texts, and jordan peterson's 12 rules for life are basically dots in a straight line. That stuff is just catnip. I just need to stop being distracted and go write actual books or something.
- pfannkuchen 4y ago
  I’m no fan of Peterson, but I’m curious— how are intentionally altering the gene pool of a group and cleaning your room colinear?
  - kristopolous 4y ago
    Look at the table of contents of this book titled "Eugenics" https://archive.org/details/naturessecretsre00shan/page/6/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/naturessecretsre00shan/page/6/mo... There were multiple points of interest for the Eugenicists. One of them was for the general public and how to get them to have a proscribed conduct and behavior. Maybe you've seen those diagrams where they have 2 life paths depicted from the Victorian era. That's from Eugenics. Example: https://ia800301.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/16/items/naturessecretsre1919shan/naturessecretsre1919shan_jp2.zip&file=naturessecretsre1919shan_jp2/naturessecretsre1919shan_0020.jp2&id=naturessecretsre1919shan&scale=2&rotate=0 https://ia800301.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.... Here's "The Road to Success" for "The Young Man" https://archive.org/details/naturessecretsre00shan/page/244/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/naturessecretsre00shan/page/244/... Again, this is part of Eugenics. We focus on the part that was removed (race science) and leave mostly unexamined the parts that were reinvented or repurposed as say, "The Power of Positive Thinking". Eugenics books, for the general public, were a different beast. Probably the best succinct description for how they thought of themselves can be summarized in this 1921 diagram: https://images.prismic.io/wellcomecollection/efc97918-8073-4fc5-95f3-34d75eb286ef_eugenics-tree-1921-tree-only.jpg https://images.prismic.io/wellcomecollection/efc97918-8073-4... It is a dangerous psuedoscientific epistemology - a practice with a bunch of faulty logic and ways of knowing that can lead to disasters and it's alive and well - for instance, assuming a social structure in lobsters applies to humans. That these adherents tend to be revealed as secretly racist and thus subscribe to the part which was removed, should be of no shock. We've mischaracterized Eugenics[1] and allowed it to fester by other names or as Maurice Bardèche, the french neo-fascist observed about fascism in the 60s, "With another name, another face, and with nothing which betrays the projection from the past, with the form of a child we do not recognize and the head of a young Medusa, the Order of Sparta will be reborn" The point is that if you don't draw the perimeter right around an idea, you can't reign it in. It'll just escape from your hands and re-emerge as something else. So, for instance, the slave plantation becomes the prison farm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm). We tend to, for good reason, ignore societal trainwrecks and blights on our past. But trainwrecks are the most important thing to study if we strive to build safer trains and seek to avoid similar disasters in the future. Things have to be accurately tackled with in order to defeat them. --- [1] it's worth noting it's a big topic and some "real" science has also come out of it, such as biosocial theory and biostatistics studies. Peer reviewed journals such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Heredity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Heredity used to be eugenics journals. This is, however, a very small minority.
    - gsinclair 4y ago
      Awesome comment; thank you.
    - barrysteve 4y ago
      Manners and conduct existed before eugenics and continues to exist after eugenics. You can't pull one blighted moment in the 1920s as proof the whole idea is faulty. There is little accuracy in your description of events. Peterson said we share serotonin with lobsters and it fuels a victory/defeat set of behaviours. If you drop the serotonin from his idea, it's no longer what he was talking about. Your description falls to my mind as a velvet blanket to hide underneath from scary racist and nazi ideas that have nothing to do with Victorian era manners and metaphors about behaviour, expanded out of natural science. You can't draw a 'perimeter' around the wind.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - kristopolous 4y ago
        I genuinely appreciate your engagement but this exact thing is what I was trying to avoid as a time suck. This type of literature has been a hobby of mine for years and recently I've noticed that I've given myself some expertise. Hopefully I'll be motivated to write a more complete volume in the future. It takes many pages to build proper context here. Thanks. I've read your reply but I'm trying to be judicious with my time these days.
        barrysteve 4y ago
        I don't mean anything toward you, by my comment. We obviously come from different traditions, and I can't really ever find agreement with how your argument is structured. My conclusions could be wrong, but I won't ever really know without a lot more reading of your thought, which we're both not going to give time to do. I should be more careful how much meaning I load onto the word "you" in comments, I only meant to criticize your written beliefs. Good luck.
    - 4y ago
- nqrac 4y ago
  Peterson an academic who is clueless about the real world. His best work was discussing politics in connection with liberty, especially the Trucker protests. His biggest flaw is that (like the other Daily Wire pundits) he never goes into economics and has absurd ideas that we live in a competence hierarchy. The whole "intellectual dark web" imploded after the start of the Ukraine war, when they first went full neocon, then realized that their audience does not like that and now start backpedaling massively.
  - kristopolous 4y ago
    I'd like to recommend "decoding the gurus" podcast which is probably the best treatment of this material I've seen. It's still lacking but I should "put up or shut up". They're doing a fine job

kristopolous 4y ago

correct! Btw, I removed them from my examples, didn't want to "discuss" that here. I'm kind of a history nerd and it's like a fishing hook with delicious bait when I see stuff like that. "Oh wait! You think it was just the south that argued states rights?! Actually (brings up fugitive slave clause jurisprudence)" Or how manner and conduct books of the 1800s, eugenics texts, and jordan peterson's 12 rules for life are basically dots in a straight line. That stuff is just catnip. I just need to stop being distracted and go write actual books or something.

pfannkuchen 4y ago
I’m no fan of Peterson, but I’m curious— how are intentionally altering the gene pool of a group and cleaning your room colinear?
- kristopolous 4y ago
  Look at the table of contents of this book titled "Eugenics" https://archive.org/details/naturessecretsre00shan/page/6/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/naturessecretsre00shan/page/6/mo... There were multiple points of interest for the Eugenicists. One of them was for the general public and how to get them to have a proscribed conduct and behavior. Maybe you've seen those diagrams where they have 2 life paths depicted from the Victorian era. That's from Eugenics. Example: https://ia800301.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/16/items/naturessecretsre1919shan/naturessecretsre1919shan_jp2.zip&file=naturessecretsre1919shan_jp2/naturessecretsre1919shan_0020.jp2&id=naturessecretsre1919shan&scale=2&rotate=0 https://ia800301.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.... Here's "The Road to Success" for "The Young Man" https://archive.org/details/naturessecretsre00shan/page/244/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/naturessecretsre00shan/page/244/... Again, this is part of Eugenics. We focus on the part that was removed (race science) and leave mostly unexamined the parts that were reinvented or repurposed as say, "The Power of Positive Thinking". Eugenics books, for the general public, were a different beast. Probably the best succinct description for how they thought of themselves can be summarized in this 1921 diagram: https://images.prismic.io/wellcomecollection/efc97918-8073-4fc5-95f3-34d75eb286ef_eugenics-tree-1921-tree-only.jpg https://images.prismic.io/wellcomecollection/efc97918-8073-4... It is a dangerous psuedoscientific epistemology - a practice with a bunch of faulty logic and ways of knowing that can lead to disasters and it's alive and well - for instance, assuming a social structure in lobsters applies to humans. That these adherents tend to be revealed as secretly racist and thus subscribe to the part which was removed, should be of no shock. We've mischaracterized Eugenics[1] and allowed it to fester by other names or as Maurice Bardèche, the french neo-fascist observed about fascism in the 60s, "With another name, another face, and with nothing which betrays the projection from the past, with the form of a child we do not recognize and the head of a young Medusa, the Order of Sparta will be reborn" The point is that if you don't draw the perimeter right around an idea, you can't reign it in. It'll just escape from your hands and re-emerge as something else. So, for instance, the slave plantation becomes the prison farm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_farm). We tend to, for good reason, ignore societal trainwrecks and blights on our past. But trainwrecks are the most important thing to study if we strive to build safer trains and seek to avoid similar disasters in the future. Things have to be accurately tackled with in order to defeat them. --- [1] it's worth noting it's a big topic and some "real" science has also come out of it, such as biosocial theory and biostatistics studies. Peer reviewed journals such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Heredity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Heredity used to be eugenics journals. This is, however, a very small minority.
  - gsinclair 4y ago
    Awesome comment; thank you.
  - barrysteve 4y ago
    Manners and conduct existed before eugenics and continues to exist after eugenics. You can't pull one blighted moment in the 1920s as proof the whole idea is faulty. There is little accuracy in your description of events. Peterson said we share serotonin with lobsters and it fuels a victory/defeat set of behaviours. If you drop the serotonin from his idea, it's no longer what he was talking about. Your description falls to my mind as a velvet blanket to hide underneath from scary racist and nazi ideas that have nothing to do with Victorian era manners and metaphors about behaviour, expanded out of natural science. You can't draw a 'perimeter' around the wind.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - kristopolous 4y ago
      I genuinely appreciate your engagement but this exact thing is what I was trying to avoid as a time suck. This type of literature has been a hobby of mine for years and recently I've noticed that I've given myself some expertise. Hopefully I'll be motivated to write a more complete volume in the future. It takes many pages to build proper context here. Thanks. I've read your reply but I'm trying to be judicious with my time these days.
      - barrysteve 4y ago
        I don't mean anything toward you, by my comment. We obviously come from different traditions, and I can't really ever find agreement with how your argument is structured. My conclusions could be wrong, but I won't ever really know without a lot more reading of your thought, which we're both not going to give time to do. I should be more careful how much meaning I load onto the word "you" in comments, I only meant to criticize your written beliefs. Good luck.
  - 4y ago
nqrac 4y ago
Peterson an academic who is clueless about the real world. His best work was discussing politics in connection with liberty, especially the Trucker protests. His biggest flaw is that (like the other Daily Wire pundits) he never goes into economics and has absurd ideas that we live in a competence hierarchy. The whole "intellectual dark web" imploded after the start of the Ukraine war, when they first went full neocon, then realized that their audience does not like that and now start backpedaling massively.
- kristopolous 4y ago
  I'd like to recommend "decoding the gurus" podcast which is probably the best treatment of this material I've seen. It's still lacking but I should "put up or shut up". They're doing a fine job