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That doesn't sound even close to accurate, having read the article. They collaborated, she designed costumes, they flew to Greece together, her family invited h

That doesn't sound even close to accurate, having read the article. They collaborated, she designed costumes, they flew to Greece together, her family invited him to stay at their property. Still doesn't suggest they were an item, but it's far from doing it all without her consent. Plus, he was still intent on making the movie after she moved on.

DoreenMichele 4y ago
The first sentence states he fell "head over heels" in love with her even though nowhere in the piece does he indicate they ever dated or flirted or so much as kissed. The rest of the first paragraph describe an interaction that sounds to me like she was probably trying to deflect his interest. He goes on to say he persisted with a tenacity he did not know he was capable of. If that doesn't sound borderline stalkerish to you, I don't know what to say. We likely won't see eye-to-eye on the topic.
- circlefull 4y ago
  Oh come on. The author never harassed her caused any harm or did anything she refused. He was a suitor and had a crush. Stalker is a word better used more carefully in my opinion, for bad people. Not hopeless romantics perusing hopeless relationships.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    While this is true, that's also exactly how stalkers present themselves.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      Haven't RTFA, but it is clear neither you nor OP have any idea what stalking is. While it does mean "to approach stealthily," which implies surveilling and following in the context of predator and prey, in the social and criminal sense stalking has a specific meaning which is in the simplest sense to threaten. Any indication in the article that the author had an intent of harassment and intimidation, or threatened a victim with bodily harm or death? Was the author explicitly shunned by the target of his affection and then continued to aggressively pursue her obsessively? No? Then it is not stalking.
      - DoreenMichele 4y ago
        We do not have Susan Brockman's side of this story. We do not know if the contact was deemed unwanted nor if she felt threatened, etc. This was the 1950s and 60s. Women with any career ambition put up with a lot more sexist BS and sexual BS than they typically do today. She may have felt this was an opportunity she could not afford to pass up.
        Maursault 4y ago
        Right, so we must presume his behavior is criminal until he is proven innocent.
        bequanna 4y ago
        Ridiculous. Why are you pushing this dreamed up narrative so hard without a single piece of evidence? Do you have personal knowledge of something that isn’t included in this story?
    - watwut 4y ago
      Not really? Stalking actions require you to invade privacy or continuing contact when it was unwanted. Stalking is an actual thing.
      - actionfromafar 4y ago
        Are you arguing stalkers present themselves as "hi, I invade privacy and continue contact when unwanted"?
        watwut 4y ago
        I am saying this article is not how stalkers represent themselves. I am saying that article does not contain stalking actions either.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    Not hopeless romantics perusing hopeless relationships. Let me reframe that: If there is no hope she will ever say "yes", he knows that and pursues her anyway, he is a stalker, not a hopeless romantic.
    - throwawaylinux 4y ago
      That's just not what stalking means. It's a pretty serious crime with a real definition, not just "I don't like somebody" or "they hurt my feelings" or whatever. You're free to call it creepy or frightening or anything else, it's just not what stalking is though. You've made up your own definition of the word.
      - DoreenMichele 4y ago
        According to the US DOJ: The term “stalking” means engaging in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety or the safety of others or suffer substantial emotional distress. https://www.justice.gov/ovw/stalking https://www.justice.gov/ovw/stalking At some point, someone told me (to my surprise -- they were rebutting some comment I made online) that horror movies tend to have mostly female audiences. A lot of horror movies have plot lines that sound a fair amount like stalking or some exaggerated fantasy version of stalking. A lot of women suffer substantial emotional distress and fear for their own safety due to the behavior of men they know who will not give it a rest. Men tend to be bigger than women, outweigh them, have a strength advantage, are more likely to have combat training or martial arts classes, etc. One article I read years ago indicated that when asked what they most feared from a woman, men feared being laughed at. Women feared being killed (by men). Men may not be comfortable hearing that their behavior can be taken as threatening and scary to women when they think they are just being "a hopeless romantic." But I am absolutely not making up my own definition of anything.
        throwawaylinux 4y ago
        "I have decided that woman is 'out of his league', therefore the fact he appears to be pursuing a relationship with her causes me to fear for her safety" would not meet the reasonable person test. To be clear I wasn't challenging you on how you personally feel, you don't need to justify that to me. And I'm not being pejorative or trying to say your feelings are less valid with "reasonable", just following the legal term.
- nl 4y ago
  Whilst I moderately agree that it does sound like it could be stalkerish there is some evidence of her active involvement, eg: > I was living at my parents’ home in Rockville Centre and feared that asking Zervos to reply to Ed Epstein c/o Betty & Lou Epstein might cast my credibility as a producer into question. Susan’s sorority house at Cornell, Alpha Epsilon Phi, had a similar problem, but Susan found the solution: her father. > David Brockman, a successful financier, had an impressive address, which I used as my return address. and: > I returned to Greece with Susan. She would supervise the design of the costumes, chariots, and other artwork. She took the costume design from vases she found in museums.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    I'm a woman. I try to assume good faith if men are pretending they wish to support my professional goals. In my experience, it's 100 percent downside for me if the real motivation is sexual interest.
    - nl 4y ago
      As I said, I moderately agree but I'm unsure there is enough information to be sure. She certainly was involved in the project and seems to possibly have known of his romantic interest because she told him when she told him when she had become romantically involved with Willem de Kooning.
      - DoreenMichele 4y ago
        Choosing to accept a leading role in a movie that many people were excited about because they thought Brando would be in it does not mean she was never uncomfortable with his romantic interest in her. The fact that she told him she got involved with someone else may have been polite code for "You can stop holding out hope we will get together. It's not going to happen, which I have been trying to politely signal since the very first time you chatted me up and I didn't bother to so much as look at you." If a woman is too picky about completely avoiding men who are interested in her where her answer is definitely no to their romantic interest, it can make it impossible to pursue a career at all and doing so may not even protect her from having to put up with his unwanted attentions. #NotAllMen, obviously, but it's an excessively common issue for some women.
- simoncion 4y ago
  > The rest of the first paragraph describe an interaction that sounds to me like she was probably trying to deflect his interest. And the remaining ~200 paragraphs describe an interaction that sounds to me very much like a director and producer collaborating on a doomed Hollywood production with one of his staff and the investors she brought on to the production. The context provided by the entire rest of the piece is pretty important.

DoreenMichele 4y ago

The first sentence states he fell "head over heels" in love with her even though nowhere in the piece does he indicate they ever dated or flirted or so much as kissed. The rest of the first paragraph describe an interaction that sounds to me like she was probably trying to deflect his interest. He goes on to say he persisted with a tenacity he did not know he was capable of. If that doesn't sound borderline stalkerish to you, I don't know what to say. We likely won't see eye-to-eye on the topic.

circlefull 4y ago
Oh come on. The author never harassed her caused any harm or did anything she refused. He was a suitor and had a crush. Stalker is a word better used more carefully in my opinion, for bad people. Not hopeless romantics perusing hopeless relationships.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  While this is true, that's also exactly how stalkers present themselves.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    Haven't RTFA, but it is clear neither you nor OP have any idea what stalking is. While it does mean "to approach stealthily," which implies surveilling and following in the context of predator and prey, in the social and criminal sense stalking has a specific meaning which is in the simplest sense to threaten. Any indication in the article that the author had an intent of harassment and intimidation, or threatened a victim with bodily harm or death? Was the author explicitly shunned by the target of his affection and then continued to aggressively pursue her obsessively? No? Then it is not stalking.
    - DoreenMichele 4y ago
      We do not have Susan Brockman's side of this story. We do not know if the contact was deemed unwanted nor if she felt threatened, etc. This was the 1950s and 60s. Women with any career ambition put up with a lot more sexist BS and sexual BS than they typically do today. She may have felt this was an opportunity she could not afford to pass up.
      - Maursault 4y ago
        Right, so we must presume his behavior is criminal until he is proven innocent.
      - bequanna 4y ago
        Ridiculous. Why are you pushing this dreamed up narrative so hard without a single piece of evidence? Do you have personal knowledge of something that isn’t included in this story?
  - watwut 4y ago
    Not really? Stalking actions require you to invade privacy or continuing contact when it was unwanted. Stalking is an actual thing.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      Are you arguing stalkers present themselves as "hi, I invade privacy and continue contact when unwanted"?
      - watwut 4y ago
        I am saying this article is not how stalkers represent themselves. I am saying that article does not contain stalking actions either.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  Not hopeless romantics perusing hopeless relationships. Let me reframe that: If there is no hope she will ever say "yes", he knows that and pursues her anyway, he is a stalker, not a hopeless romantic.
  - throwawaylinux 4y ago
    That's just not what stalking means. It's a pretty serious crime with a real definition, not just "I don't like somebody" or "they hurt my feelings" or whatever. You're free to call it creepy or frightening or anything else, it's just not what stalking is though. You've made up your own definition of the word.
    - DoreenMichele 4y ago
      According to the US DOJ: The term “stalking” means engaging in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety or the safety of others or suffer substantial emotional distress. https://www.justice.gov/ovw/stalking https://www.justice.gov/ovw/stalking At some point, someone told me (to my surprise -- they were rebutting some comment I made online) that horror movies tend to have mostly female audiences. A lot of horror movies have plot lines that sound a fair amount like stalking or some exaggerated fantasy version of stalking. A lot of women suffer substantial emotional distress and fear for their own safety due to the behavior of men they know who will not give it a rest. Men tend to be bigger than women, outweigh them, have a strength advantage, are more likely to have combat training or martial arts classes, etc. One article I read years ago indicated that when asked what they most feared from a woman, men feared being laughed at. Women feared being killed (by men). Men may not be comfortable hearing that their behavior can be taken as threatening and scary to women when they think they are just being "a hopeless romantic." But I am absolutely not making up my own definition of anything.
      - throwawaylinux 4y ago
        "I have decided that woman is 'out of his league', therefore the fact he appears to be pursuing a relationship with her causes me to fear for her safety" would not meet the reasonable person test. To be clear I wasn't challenging you on how you personally feel, you don't need to justify that to me. And I'm not being pejorative or trying to say your feelings are less valid with "reasonable", just following the legal term.
nl 4y ago
Whilst I moderately agree that it does sound like it could be stalkerish there is some evidence of her active involvement, eg: > I was living at my parents’ home in Rockville Centre and feared that asking Zervos to reply to Ed Epstein c/o Betty & Lou Epstein might cast my credibility as a producer into question. Susan’s sorority house at Cornell, Alpha Epsilon Phi, had a similar problem, but Susan found the solution: her father. > David Brockman, a successful financier, had an impressive address, which I used as my return address. and: > I returned to Greece with Susan. She would supervise the design of the costumes, chariots, and other artwork. She took the costume design from vases she found in museums.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  I'm a woman. I try to assume good faith if men are pretending they wish to support my professional goals. In my experience, it's 100 percent downside for me if the real motivation is sexual interest.
  - nl 4y ago
    As I said, I moderately agree but I'm unsure there is enough information to be sure. She certainly was involved in the project and seems to possibly have known of his romantic interest because she told him when she told him when she had become romantically involved with Willem de Kooning.
    - DoreenMichele 4y ago
      Choosing to accept a leading role in a movie that many people were excited about because they thought Brando would be in it does not mean she was never uncomfortable with his romantic interest in her. The fact that she told him she got involved with someone else may have been polite code for "You can stop holding out hope we will get together. It's not going to happen, which I have been trying to politely signal since the very first time you chatted me up and I didn't bother to so much as look at you." If a woman is too picky about completely avoiding men who are interested in her where her answer is definitely no to their romantic interest, it can make it impossible to pursue a career at all and doing so may not even protect her from having to put up with his unwanted attentions. #NotAllMen, obviously, but it's an excessively common issue for some women.
simoncion 4y ago
> The rest of the first paragraph describe an interaction that sounds to me like she was probably trying to deflect his interest. And the remaining ~200 paragraphs describe an interaction that sounds to me very much like a director and producer collaborating on a doomed Hollywood production with one of his staff and the investors she brought on to the production. The context provided by the entire rest of the piece is pretty important.