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UK need to divide the country into cost regions based on the bottlenecks and it will work like international power connections. The political problem is making

UK need to divide the country into cost regions based on the bottlenecks and it will work like international power connections. The political problem is making Scotland its own separate region. Have a look at the regions in for example Sweden which face similar bottlenecks in transmission capacity from north to south. https://app.electricitymaps.com/map https://app.electricitymaps.com/map

londons_explore 4y ago
There are lots of wind businesses dependent on the old market rules. There are lots of multi-decade power delivery agreements using the old single-price market as a benchmark. If you change the rules, you have to give everyone compensation, or run the risk of being seen as a 'bad place to invest'.
- Gwypaas 4y ago
  The CFD scheme UK has employed works just as well when introducing regions.
caf 4y ago
Yes, or indeed Australia. https://www.aemo.com.au/Energy-systems/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-NEM/Data-Dashboard-NEM https://www.aemo.com.au/Energy-systems/Electricity/National-...
- xthrown1 4y ago
  Copying the Australian power market with it's >$20k mWh price swings, negative energy prices and brown outs on hot days is not something anyone sane should do. Australia and California are the poster children of why renewables are terrible for an electricity grid once they get past 10% of generation.
  - caf 4y ago
    Those price swings are reflecting the economic reality of a product which there is very limited capacity to store and for which both demand and supply can vary rapidly. In practice energy consumers and generators are both limited in their exposure to them through financial instruments like CFDs. "brown outs on hot days" is straight up propaganda. And at least having different pricing regions means that it's not investing in building useless generation where there isn't the demand or transmission capacity to move it to where it's required!
    - xthrown1 4y ago
      >"brown outs on hot days" is straight up propaganda. https://www.9news.com.au/national/energy-shortage-explainer-will-we-have-blackouts-and-why/1c1b780d-a11c-4bce-8bfd-9a39ca9a6602 https://www.9news.com.au/national/energy-shortage-explainer-... You're right. They just had to nationalize the market last year. The brownouts were the year before that.
      - stephen_g 4y ago
        Sorry, were you in Australia? We haven't had load shedding from a LOR (Lack Of Reserve) event almost ever, and we don't commonly get browouts. That's just lies and FUD. That article is actually just "sometimes the grid operator has to ask aluminium smelters to reduce their demand a bit". The last major power outages to do with the grid were a couple of years ago here in Queensland when a large coal unit (Callide C unit 4) literally blew up, instantly taking a a bit over 800 MW of generation off the grid. Took like three hours to get large parts of the state back on. A year or so before that there was some minor load shedding in Victoria when two coal plants were down for unexpected maintenance over a heat wave (and I think another one or two tripped out in the heat) - and actually solar and wind from other states helped minimise that. Then there was the big one, where massive storms in South Australia took out transmission lines and a bunch of generators (including some wind farms) tripped off. Of course, despite being caused by the storm destroying transmission lines, the right wing did blame the wind farms for it...
        xthrown1 4y ago
  - zizee 4y ago
    Bullshit. The Australian example best demonstrates that selling off production and networks to private companies, whilst trying to create an artificial market that constrains a monopoly chokehold on a product with inelastic demand is very difficult to pull off.
  - femto 4y ago
    (Most of) Australia's problem is that the government stuck its head in the sand for a decade and pretended that renewables weren't happening. Consequently minimal groundwork was done by preparing the grid with suitable transmission and storage. Now it's being overtaken by the inevitable: renewables displacing coal/gas because they are cheaper to build and run. There will be a period of pain whilst the missing groundwork is done but it will get there. I say "most of" as South Australia is showing how it can be done, with over 70% of its energy coming from renewables whilst not being blessed with hydro [1]. [1] https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-grid-with-the-most-wind-and-solar-has-the-smallest-reliability-gap/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-grid-with-the-mo...
    - xthrown1 4y ago
      > Consequently minimal groundwork was done by preparing the grid with suitable transmission and storage. You mean like putting in the worlds largest battery? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve?useski... You're reaching levels or reality denial I've only seen in republican administrations projections about peace in the middle east.
      - hulahoof 4y ago
        As noted in your link Hornsdale Power Reserve is in South Australia, which is what the parent used as a good example of preparation.
        xthrown1 4y ago
        Yes, and it had enough backup to run the grid for 5 minutes, at the low low price of $200m. Now you'd only need another $50,000,000 to have enough storage to run it overnight.

londons_explore 4y ago

There are lots of wind businesses dependent on the old market rules. There are lots of multi-decade power delivery agreements using the old single-price market as a benchmark. If you change the rules, you have to give everyone compensation, or run the risk of being seen as a 'bad place to invest'.

Gwypaas 4y ago
The CFD scheme UK has employed works just as well when introducing regions.

caf 4y ago

Yes, or indeed Australia. https://www.aemo.com.au/Energy-systems/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-NEM/Data-Dashboard-NEM https://www.aemo.com.au/Energy-systems/Electricity/National-...

xthrown1 4y ago
Copying the Australian power market with it's >$20k mWh price swings, negative energy prices and brown outs on hot days is not something anyone sane should do. Australia and California are the poster children of why renewables are terrible for an electricity grid once they get past 10% of generation.
- caf 4y ago
  Those price swings are reflecting the economic reality of a product which there is very limited capacity to store and for which both demand and supply can vary rapidly. In practice energy consumers and generators are both limited in their exposure to them through financial instruments like CFDs. "brown outs on hot days" is straight up propaganda. And at least having different pricing regions means that it's not investing in building useless generation where there isn't the demand or transmission capacity to move it to where it's required!
  - xthrown1 4y ago
    >"brown outs on hot days" is straight up propaganda. https://www.9news.com.au/national/energy-shortage-explainer-will-we-have-blackouts-and-why/1c1b780d-a11c-4bce-8bfd-9a39ca9a6602 https://www.9news.com.au/national/energy-shortage-explainer-... You're right. They just had to nationalize the market last year. The brownouts were the year before that.
    - stephen_g 4y ago
      Sorry, were you in Australia? We haven't had load shedding from a LOR (Lack Of Reserve) event almost ever, and we don't commonly get browouts. That's just lies and FUD. That article is actually just "sometimes the grid operator has to ask aluminium smelters to reduce their demand a bit". The last major power outages to do with the grid were a couple of years ago here in Queensland when a large coal unit (Callide C unit 4) literally blew up, instantly taking a a bit over 800 MW of generation off the grid. Took like three hours to get large parts of the state back on. A year or so before that there was some minor load shedding in Victoria when two coal plants were down for unexpected maintenance over a heat wave (and I think another one or two tripped out in the heat) - and actually solar and wind from other states helped minimise that. Then there was the big one, where massive storms in South Australia took out transmission lines and a bunch of generators (including some wind farms) tripped off. Of course, despite being caused by the storm destroying transmission lines, the right wing did blame the wind farms for it...
      - xthrown1 4y ago
- zizee 4y ago
  Bullshit. The Australian example best demonstrates that selling off production and networks to private companies, whilst trying to create an artificial market that constrains a monopoly chokehold on a product with inelastic demand is very difficult to pull off.
- femto 4y ago
  (Most of) Australia's problem is that the government stuck its head in the sand for a decade and pretended that renewables weren't happening. Consequently minimal groundwork was done by preparing the grid with suitable transmission and storage. Now it's being overtaken by the inevitable: renewables displacing coal/gas because they are cheaper to build and run. There will be a period of pain whilst the missing groundwork is done but it will get there. I say "most of" as South Australia is showing how it can be done, with over 70% of its energy coming from renewables whilst not being blessed with hydro [1]. [1] https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-grid-with-the-most-wind-and-solar-has-the-smallest-reliability-gap/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-grid-with-the-mo...
  - xthrown1 4y ago
    > Consequently minimal groundwork was done by preparing the grid with suitable transmission and storage. You mean like putting in the worlds largest battery? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve?useskin=vector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve?useski... You're reaching levels or reality denial I've only seen in republican administrations projections about peace in the middle east.
    - hulahoof 4y ago
      As noted in your link Hornsdale Power Reserve is in South Australia, which is what the parent used as a good example of preparation.
      - xthrown1 4y ago
        Yes, and it had enough backup to run the grid for 5 minutes, at the low low price of $200m. Now you'd only need another $50,000,000 to have enough storage to run it overnight.