5 ms·

This is so extremely underwhelming that just a "meh" really doesn't cut it. What would really help welders would be actual augmented reality welding - like you

This is so extremely underwhelming that just a "meh" really doesn't cut it. What would really help welders would be actual augmented reality welding - like you have a monitor in your helmet which shows you the environment in normal daylight with high contrast and also shows you the puddle under the arc in normal daylight with high contrast - but doesn't show you the blinding bright arc itself (instead it shows a convenient indicater for where the arc hits the surface and whether you are too near or too far from the surface with the gun). Basically welding as if you had eyes capable of filtering out the bright arc without any reduction of contrast or brightness anywhere else. For extra satisfaction add some microstabilization to the gun, so it can help you keep the tungsten needle at the optimal distance to the surface despite your hands becoming more jittery as you age.

reportingsjr 4y ago
I've wished for this product for years. Steve Mann created a prototype yeeaarrss ago that looks incredible, but no one has taken it to the commercial stage yet: http://wearcam.org/mannventions-password-stefanosmannaz13/mannglas.htm http://wearcam.org/mannventions-password-stefanosmannaz13/ma...
- originalcopying 4y ago
  edit: deleted
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    I am not a welder. That being said, I'd imagine the active circuitry required to capture and process the images in realtime (or 30fps, in this case) is expensive and bulkier than what's currently used. Processing stereoscopic 2048x2048 HDR streams is no easy task, you'd basically be looking at a VR helmet once you consider where to put battery and compute unit. It's a cool invention, but probably one of those "analog computer" ideas that's harder to scale/apply than the cheaper alternatives.
    - convolvatron 4y ago
      welding helmets can exceed $1k already. and at a working minimum of $80/hr, if you can improve quality and reduce time (rework is the worst thing here - it never comes out right, takes forever, and so its often more cost effective to start the work from the beginning), the economics might easily work out..especially at the higher end
    - PanMan 4y ago
      Obviously the high dynamic range is a challenge, but besides that: car reverse camera's cost a few bucks, I don't think this would need to be Way more expensive. It also doesn't have to be stereoscopic and 2048x2048 I'd say... - it would quickly be a step up from the current solution which only allows you to see the welding arc
      - throwway120385 4y ago
        A car's reverse camera doesn't have the dynamic range to filter headlights at night, much less an arc that's hot enough to give you a sunburn.
        bri3d 4y ago
        You could just use two cameras, or even four, or eight cameras! Each with a different level of filter. Camera sensors are cheap. Degradation of the sensors on the "bright" cameras would be an issue, however.
    - nullc 4y ago
      Welding helmets are bulky, VR headsets are similar. Lets parts in a helmet but the helmet needs to protect your face and neck from sunburn and potentially bits of metal (depending on your position). And any processing bulk could be belt worn or even sitting on the ground connected by a cable: you're already tethered to the welder and buffer gas tank after all!
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    I mean augmented reality has been extremely hard even for normal uses without the extreme environment of welding involved. Even Apple still hasn’t nailed it yet according to reports. Hard to see how a welding company could succeed where Apple and Meta struggle.
    - spookie 4y ago
      AR is used today in automotive manufacture and repair (Bosch), and surgery (Mount Sinai, John Hopkins). There's also military applications, or construction. Meta is not, by a long shot, on the forefront of actual uses of the technology. Their hardware, and ease of use is top notch, no question about it. But there are real, and pratical use cases out there done by smaller companies in specialized fields. The issue lies in creating something with mainstream appeal, which I do agree with you, that's a whole other story.
      - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
        It looks like the Bosch solution is an AR iPad app. I was really thinking about the challenge of developing a full headset for welding. https://www.boschaftermarket.com/gb/en/diagnostics/solutions/augmented-reality https://www.boschaftermarket.com/gb/en/diagnostics/solutions... It wasn't totally clear, but it looks like Mount Sinai might be using Microsoft hololens. It does seem like John Hopkins has something interesting. I am not saying it is impossible, but I certainly would not say I was "surprised" Miller welding has not developed full AR glasses for welding. AR is hard and this is early days.
- Oktokolo 4y ago
  The link mentions that the topic is mined with a patent. Sadly makes a lot of sense for no one even daring to think about innovating in that field then.
giantg2 4y ago
I'd imagine a thermal camera could be useful too.
- zamnos 4y ago
  I'd be fascinated to hear about attempts. It seems like that the welding spot would be bright enough to overwhelm the sensor making it difficult to get anything out from it other than white
  - metal_am 4y ago
    This is definitely done in the research world. The flash/brightness from the arc isn't an issue because it's a different wavelength (UV vs. IR).
  - convolvatron 4y ago
    certainly in the immediate vicinity of the arc. the secret would be to accommodate for that in the exposure. you're also going to throw out the most energetic parts of the spectrum with a filter. idk if thermal would be that useful for steel, especially if you can clearly resolve the boundary of the melt pool - but for high conductivity metals like copper and aluminum, it might be a real godsend. the problem with these is that since they wick heat away, you need to build up the temperature of the whole piece until its close to melting, and then just push it over with the arc. its pretty common to take it too far and have a big section of work turn into a slaggy mess.
actionfromafar 4y ago
I wonder what could manage that... maybe some kind of sensor fusion with ultrasound combined with dead reckoning and positioning and attitude sensor in the gun?
- semi-extrinsic 4y ago
  Nah, it's plenty enough to use two (or more) cameras where one has a hefty ND filter, then you use an HDR algorithm to fuse the images.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bunabhucan 4y ago
It's going to have mount a headset on a already bulky face shield and do a better job than the existing solutions. I'm just thinking about how hard it can be to get a vr headset aligned- with two free hands. Many people set up and then nod forward to get the shield down. I could see a solution that provided off bore data/feedback but that could probably be managed with a mini led projector or just leds since it's so dark already.
m463 4y ago
I agree - I imagine that welding is generating all KINDS of crazy UV emissions that get through the filters and eventually kill your retina. Add the fact that welders are probably "second-hand smoking" while welding and I think there's a real opportunity to help society.
- Oktokolo 4y ago
  Nah, with good filters, the UV radiation doesn't reach your retina. And modern masks have filtered ventilation too (in addition to workplace fume extraction if working indoors). But you need to focus on the workpiece, the gun, the puddle... the whole time. The contrast you get through that filters is shit - can't really see a lot apart from the arc and the puddle (especially if you are older). Being a welder guarantees a lot of eye strain. It isn't like they actually get damaged, but it can be very unpleasant nonetheless. And all that just because of that ultra-bright arc. With augmented reality, you could just see all the things like if there where no filter and the arc wouldn't be there.
tastyfreeze 4y ago
Agreed. For training purposes this software could be integrated in to the AR you describe so the user could get immediate feedback on the quality of their work without an instructor. To me the holy grail of AR would be expert level overlays for construction or repair jobs. If I could wear AR glasses and see part removal order, torque specs, and reassembly order I could do any mechanical repair job, provided I have the tools.
- aaron695 4y ago
  [dead]
Szpadel 4y ago
I saw some video where someone made welding mask with smartphone instead of dark window and using just camera preview, surprisingly great results as it was able to darken image enough that you could clearly see through arc. probably doing some software magic could help with part where you also could see environment around

reportingsjr 4y ago

I've wished for this product for years. Steve Mann created a prototype yeeaarrss ago that looks incredible, but no one has taken it to the commercial stage yet: http://wearcam.org/mannventions-password-stefanosmannaz13/mannglas.htm http://wearcam.org/mannventions-password-stefanosmannaz13/ma...

originalcopying 4y ago
edit: deleted
- smoldesu 4y ago
  I am not a welder. That being said, I'd imagine the active circuitry required to capture and process the images in realtime (or 30fps, in this case) is expensive and bulkier than what's currently used. Processing stereoscopic 2048x2048 HDR streams is no easy task, you'd basically be looking at a VR helmet once you consider where to put battery and compute unit. It's a cool invention, but probably one of those "analog computer" ideas that's harder to scale/apply than the cheaper alternatives.
  - convolvatron 4y ago
    welding helmets can exceed $1k already. and at a working minimum of $80/hr, if you can improve quality and reduce time (rework is the worst thing here - it never comes out right, takes forever, and so its often more cost effective to start the work from the beginning), the economics might easily work out..especially at the higher end
  - PanMan 4y ago
    Obviously the high dynamic range is a challenge, but besides that: car reverse camera's cost a few bucks, I don't think this would need to be Way more expensive. It also doesn't have to be stereoscopic and 2048x2048 I'd say... - it would quickly be a step up from the current solution which only allows you to see the welding arc
    - throwway120385 4y ago
      A car's reverse camera doesn't have the dynamic range to filter headlights at night, much less an arc that's hot enough to give you a sunburn.
      - bri3d 4y ago
        You could just use two cameras, or even four, or eight cameras! Each with a different level of filter. Camera sensors are cheap. Degradation of the sensors on the "bright" cameras would be an issue, however.
  - nullc 4y ago
    Welding helmets are bulky, VR headsets are similar. Lets parts in a helmet but the helmet needs to protect your face and neck from sunburn and potentially bits of metal (depending on your position). And any processing bulk could be belt worn or even sitting on the ground connected by a cable: you're already tethered to the welder and buffer gas tank after all!
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  I mean augmented reality has been extremely hard even for normal uses without the extreme environment of welding involved. Even Apple still hasn’t nailed it yet according to reports. Hard to see how a welding company could succeed where Apple and Meta struggle.
  - spookie 4y ago
    AR is used today in automotive manufacture and repair (Bosch), and surgery (Mount Sinai, John Hopkins). There's also military applications, or construction. Meta is not, by a long shot, on the forefront of actual uses of the technology. Their hardware, and ease of use is top notch, no question about it. But there are real, and pratical use cases out there done by smaller companies in specialized fields. The issue lies in creating something with mainstream appeal, which I do agree with you, that's a whole other story.
    - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
      It looks like the Bosch solution is an AR iPad app. I was really thinking about the challenge of developing a full headset for welding. https://www.boschaftermarket.com/gb/en/diagnostics/solutions/augmented-reality https://www.boschaftermarket.com/gb/en/diagnostics/solutions... It wasn't totally clear, but it looks like Mount Sinai might be using Microsoft hololens. It does seem like John Hopkins has something interesting. I am not saying it is impossible, but I certainly would not say I was "surprised" Miller welding has not developed full AR glasses for welding. AR is hard and this is early days.
Oktokolo 4y ago
The link mentions that the topic is mined with a patent. Sadly makes a lot of sense for no one even daring to think about innovating in that field then.

giantg2 4y ago

I'd imagine a thermal camera could be useful too.

zamnos 4y ago
I'd be fascinated to hear about attempts. It seems like that the welding spot would be bright enough to overwhelm the sensor making it difficult to get anything out from it other than white
- metal_am 4y ago
  This is definitely done in the research world. The flash/brightness from the arc isn't an issue because it's a different wavelength (UV vs. IR).
- convolvatron 4y ago
  certainly in the immediate vicinity of the arc. the secret would be to accommodate for that in the exposure. you're also going to throw out the most energetic parts of the spectrum with a filter. idk if thermal would be that useful for steel, especially if you can clearly resolve the boundary of the melt pool - but for high conductivity metals like copper and aluminum, it might be a real godsend. the problem with these is that since they wick heat away, you need to build up the temperature of the whole piece until its close to melting, and then just push it over with the arc. its pretty common to take it too far and have a big section of work turn into a slaggy mess.

actionfromafar 4y ago

I wonder what could manage that... maybe some kind of sensor fusion with ultrasound combined with dead reckoning and positioning and attitude sensor in the gun?

semi-extrinsic 4y ago
Nah, it's plenty enough to use two (or more) cameras where one has a hefty ND filter, then you use an HDR algorithm to fuse the images.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bunabhucan 4y ago

It's going to have mount a headset on a already bulky face shield and do a better job than the existing solutions. I'm just thinking about how hard it can be to get a vr headset aligned- with two free hands. Many people set up and then nod forward to get the shield down. I could see a solution that provided off bore data/feedback but that could probably be managed with a mini led projector or just leds since it's so dark already.

m463 4y ago

I agree - I imagine that welding is generating all KINDS of crazy UV emissions that get through the filters and eventually kill your retina. Add the fact that welders are probably "second-hand smoking" while welding and I think there's a real opportunity to help society.

Oktokolo 4y ago
Nah, with good filters, the UV radiation doesn't reach your retina. And modern masks have filtered ventilation too (in addition to workplace fume extraction if working indoors). But you need to focus on the workpiece, the gun, the puddle... the whole time. The contrast you get through that filters is shit - can't really see a lot apart from the arc and the puddle (especially if you are older). Being a welder guarantees a lot of eye strain. It isn't like they actually get damaged, but it can be very unpleasant nonetheless. And all that just because of that ultra-bright arc. With augmented reality, you could just see all the things like if there where no filter and the arc wouldn't be there.

tastyfreeze 4y ago

Agreed. For training purposes this software could be integrated in to the AR you describe so the user could get immediate feedback on the quality of their work without an instructor. To me the holy grail of AR would be expert level overlays for construction or repair jobs. If I could wear AR glasses and see part removal order, torque specs, and reassembly order I could do any mechanical repair job, provided I have the tools.

aaron695 4y ago
[dead]

Szpadel 4y ago

I saw some video where someone made welding mask with smartphone instead of dark window and using just camera preview, surprisingly great results as it was able to darken image enough that you could clearly see through arc. probably doing some software magic could help with part where you also could see environment around