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This is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. From my perspective I do not have an associate between homosexuality and pederasty. One of the things that bo

by htag 4y ago

This is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. From my perspective I do not have an associate between homosexuality and pederasty. One of the things that bothers me is the targeted investigation on gay men. If someone is investigating sexual activity of priests why are they limiting themselves to homosexual activity? Why is breaking vows of celibacy with women less serious than with men?

count 4y ago
Fornication with women is a celibacy vow, but otherwise encouraged for the laity to reproduce and be fruitful and multiply. Homosexuality is, as mentioned, viewed as an evil tendency or sin, rather than something to be encouraged, and thus is more serious on its own.
- foldr 4y ago
  Yes, this is what Catholics would say (with optional gay men = pedos dog whistles - see your sibling comment). It’s an explicitly homophobic rationale that depends on the assumption that being gay is worse than being straight. So while it sheds some light on the internal logic of Catholic homophobia, it’s hardly likely to reassure anyone who is worried that gay men are being singled out for unfair treatment. Rather, it explains exactly why this is occurring.
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    Wow, what is this? You know about how many Catholics view pedophilia as equivalent to homosexuality and you had the gall to accuse me of being inflammatory in my other comment. You do have an agenda.
    - foldr 4y ago
      I was referring to this comment from a Catholic, which explicitly connects gay men with pedophilia: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35084663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35084663 Of course not all Catholics think this way, which is why I added the word 'optional'. None of this was in reference to you.
      - kilgnad 4y ago
        [flagged]
        commoner 4y ago
        There is no evidence that homosexuality is a reliable predictor of pedersaty within the Catholic clergy. HN users making this accusation without evidence are not immune to criticism, just as Catholics who make this accusation without evidence are not immune to criticism. Your comments accusing other HN users of having "an agenda" are not consistent with this HN guideline: > Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Connor_Creegan 4y ago
Well for starters, while obviously both are sinful, for a priest to break his vow of celibacy with a woman would require fewer conceptually-separate sinful actions than for a priest to break his vow of celibacy with a man. The former would at least require betraying an oath to God, fornication, and scandal, while the latter would require the addition of sodomy. Therefore, the latter is a graver moral evil. (Additional note: while Dante Alighieri is not an approved moral theologian, many Catholics see his breakdown of Hell in the Inferno to be quite valuable; Dante places sodomites in the seventh circle with usurers and blasphemers, while those simply guilty of lust are placed in the second circle). [ EDIT: For more info on this particular aspect of Dante's breakdown of Hell, I made a video on this topic, if you are interested: https://odysee.com/@ConnorCreegan:a/violenceaswenolongerknowit:4 https://odysee.com/@ConnorCreegan:a/violenceaswenolongerknow... ] But as far as the investigation, many of us (again, I am representing a certain demographic within the Church, not an aggregate of every card-carrying Catholic) see the problem of homosexual clergy as far more interrelated with other present scandals, such as the sexual abuse crisis, widespread poor catechizing of the youth, general moral flimsiness, and the desire to displace the Tridentine form of the Mass. It's sort of a guilt-by-association thing, sure, but most investigative work in general works on heuristics. Of course, there isn't a necessary link between so-called "homosexual" inclination and behavior on the one hand and pederasty on the other. But there are a few things to keep in mind: 1) This association is actually ancient - it isn't merely some prejudice from puritanical 1950s America. You find it in Plato and Aristotle, despite the overgeneralizations people make about Ancient Greece (much of which is based on very little evidence). 2) It doesn't follow that just because homosexuality is not a consistent predictor of pederasty in the broader population that this lack of pattern is maintained among homosexual clergy. I would add that most people I speak to in the Church are consistently disfavorable toward priests that have children out of wedlock. But it doesn't really seem to be as major of an issue at present.
- htag 4y ago
  In the general population homosexuality is a poor predictor of pederasty. It is possible that this is not true of population of Catholic clergy, but it is presumptuous to make this association with a lack of other evidence. The conclusion I am drawing from this conversation is that the investigation has very little to do with preventing/stopping sexual abuse by members of the clergy, or with identifying priests that break their vow of celibacy in general. This is about disposing of theological rivals in positions of authority inside church.

by htag 4y ago

count 4y ago

Fornication with women is a celibacy vow, but otherwise encouraged for the laity to reproduce and be fruitful and multiply. Homosexuality is, as mentioned, viewed as an evil tendency or sin, rather than something to be encouraged, and thus is more serious on its own.

foldr 4y ago
Yes, this is what Catholics would say (with optional gay men = pedos dog whistles - see your sibling comment). It’s an explicitly homophobic rationale that depends on the assumption that being gay is worse than being straight. So while it sheds some light on the internal logic of Catholic homophobia, it’s hardly likely to reassure anyone who is worried that gay men are being singled out for unfair treatment. Rather, it explains exactly why this is occurring.
- kilgnad 4y ago
  Wow, what is this? You know about how many Catholics view pedophilia as equivalent to homosexuality and you had the gall to accuse me of being inflammatory in my other comment. You do have an agenda.
  - foldr 4y ago
    I was referring to this comment from a Catholic, which explicitly connects gay men with pedophilia: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35084663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35084663 Of course not all Catholics think this way, which is why I added the word 'optional'. None of this was in reference to you.
    - kilgnad 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - commoner 4y ago
        There is no evidence that homosexuality is a reliable predictor of pedersaty within the Catholic clergy. HN users making this accusation without evidence are not immune to criticism, just as Catholics who make this accusation without evidence are not immune to criticism. Your comments accusing other HN users of having "an agenda" are not consistent with this HN guideline: > Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Connor_Creegan 4y ago

Well for starters, while obviously both are sinful, for a priest to break his vow of celibacy with a woman would require fewer conceptually-separate sinful actions than for a priest to break his vow of celibacy with a man. The former would at least require betraying an oath to God, fornication, and scandal, while the latter would require the addition of sodomy. Therefore, the latter is a graver moral evil. (Additional note: while Dante Alighieri is not an approved moral theologian, many Catholics see his breakdown of Hell in the Inferno to be quite valuable; Dante places sodomites in the seventh circle with usurers and blasphemers, while those simply guilty of lust are placed in the second circle). [ EDIT: For more info on this particular aspect of Dante's breakdown of Hell, I made a video on this topic, if you are interested: https://odysee.com/@ConnorCreegan:a/violenceaswenolongerknowit:4 https://odysee.com/@ConnorCreegan:a/violenceaswenolongerknow... ] But as far as the investigation, many of us (again, I am representing a certain demographic within the Church, not an aggregate of every card-carrying Catholic) see the problem of homosexual clergy as far more interrelated with other present scandals, such as the sexual abuse crisis, widespread poor catechizing of the youth, general moral flimsiness, and the desire to displace the Tridentine form of the Mass. It's sort of a guilt-by-association thing, sure, but most investigative work in general works on heuristics. Of course, there isn't a necessary link between so-called "homosexual" inclination and behavior on the one hand and pederasty on the other. But there are a few things to keep in mind: 1) This association is actually ancient - it isn't merely some prejudice from puritanical 1950s America. You find it in Plato and Aristotle, despite the overgeneralizations people make about Ancient Greece (much of which is based on very little evidence). 2) It doesn't follow that just because homosexuality is not a consistent predictor of pederasty in the broader population that this lack of pattern is maintained among homosexual clergy. I would add that most people I speak to in the Church are consistently disfavorable toward priests that have children out of wedlock. But it doesn't really seem to be as major of an issue at present.

htag 4y ago
In the general population homosexuality is a poor predictor of pederasty. It is possible that this is not true of population of Catholic clergy, but it is presumptuous to make this association with a lack of other evidence. The conclusion I am drawing from this conversation is that the investigation has very little to do with preventing/stopping sexual abuse by members of the clergy, or with identifying priests that break their vow of celibacy in general. This is about disposing of theological rivals in positions of authority inside church.