6 ms·

Is it possible that men experience this in equal numbers, but just don't interpret those interactions in the same way?

by lr4444lr 4y ago

wonderwonder 4y ago
Or no one cared enough to ask them. I find this the more likely explanation.
- positron6000 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - janktank 4y ago
    They're only 50% of the population, right?
    - positron6000 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - janktank 4y ago
        Isn't this the same kind of dismissive, silencing behavior the submission calls out? You don't seem to practice what you preach.
        positron6001 4y ago
        no, because you haven't advanced any argument to be dismissed or silenced. literally just support for "won't someone think of the men?" that argument hasn't been silenced - you can find it in every right-wing crevice of the internet. and i'm not preaching anything, just out here observing how every women's issue on HN gets turned into "but what about the men?" or "they must be lying." anyways, i have to get back to work oppressing men in the workplace. unfortunately we'll never know their plight - as we can tell from the comments here, men definitely suffer in silence and are completely unheard.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    The study fails at its (apparent?) purpose of highlighting sexism in the workplace without that point of comparison, though. It'd still be pretty weak even with that (it's survey-based—observational studies are expensive and hard, but way better), but it's the bare minimum we'd need to even begin to figure out what kinds of interesting things the study might point toward for further examination.
  - wonderwonder 4y ago
    "The rate of suicide is highest in middle-aged white men. In 2020, men died by suicide 3.88x more than women." https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/ https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/ Yeah screw those guys right, women are obviously experiencing way more stressful lives and have to deal with more negative things.
    - positron6001 4y ago
      this is an article about women in the workplace, not suicide stats or an attempt to measure some kind of vague notion of suffering ("negative things"?). but sure, let's turn an article about an issue that women face into one about men. again, won't someone think of the men? and only the men?
    - altairprime 4y ago
      There’s a labor department study that found that 25% of US unemployed men will flat out refuse paying work if it doesn’t pay them better than their peers — and then they resent their peers for having paying work. So of course men are more likely to get depressed commit suicide: “I’m worthless unless I’m worth more than he is” is a cruel and vicious ethos to believe in, and hands responsibility for mental well-being to their neighbor’s salary. (No doubt there’s other reasons too, but all the same: men self-inflict a lot of harm that’s unique to men. Men ought to do something about that.)
      - wonderwonder 4y ago
        Current unemployment rate is 3.4%. assume half are men. So 1.7%. 25% of that is 0.425% of men. Maybe not the greatest statistical measure to judge men's suicide rates on. How would men even know how much their coworkers make? I would very much like to see the wording of the question that drove this survey. Did the study ask the same question of women? If not then how do we know this is just not a human thing. Why base the suicide rates on that and not on getting cut down at work or any and all the issues the article says women are suffering from at a high rate? They seem more likely to explain a nearly 4x suicide rate.
  - dyno12345 4y ago
    you don't know if gender is even a casually related factor if you don't collect data for both genders
HideousKojima 4y ago
Yeah, this is all self-reporting based mostly on perceptions of things as opposed to things that are objective and/or quantifiable. I don't know about you, but when I tell my coworkers/managers "Hey I found like 100 SQL injection vulnerabilities in this legacy codebase can I please have permission to fix them?" and they ignore me, I don't assume they're undermining me or jealous of my success. I assume they're just idiots.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  I've had an idea I proposed in a meeting ignored, only to be greeted warmly and immediately adopted when proposed later in the exact same meeting... by a woman (and not one higher than me on the "totem pole", either). I didn't interpret it as sexism, but if I'd been a woman and her a man, I guess I probably would have taken it as not just sexism, but egregious sexism, the kind of blatant crap one can hardly believe exists. I gather that's actually one of the nasty things about sexism—it's hard to really be sure when what's happening is sexism, versus when it's just ordinary shitty things that happen to everyone.
  - altairprime 4y ago
    Your anecdote lacks any information on existing social networking that may be in effect, that could provide a gender-agnostic explanation for this outcome. This outcome occurs quite regularly with engineers who disregard social networking with their leadership, regardless of the gender of those who have invested in networking and reap the rewards of it in recognition and “being heard”. You’d need to establish a pattern of refusal to network with non-women, in order to have grounds to pursue a gendered case, given only this anecdote as evidence.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      Oh, of course. Again, I don't think it was sexism. But something that, under other circumstances, would look very very much like blatant sexism—might not be. Which causes problems for lots of women (I've heard) because they'll hesitate to act on actual sexism, due to all the second-guessing. This is relevant for the study, because "experienced a thing that, viewed through a certain lens, looks a ton like sexism" is something that I could answer "yes" to (more than once, actually! That was just the one that would have most-looked-like sexism if our positions had been reversed)... but I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Without some kind of baseline rate for this stuff, it's hard to tell what's actually going on. Further, as men and women might interpret the exact same events differently, you'd really need an observational study to begin to suss out the reality—a survey's not going to cut it, beyond maybe providing guidance on areas for further research.
altairprime 4y ago
[flagged]
- lr4444lr 4y ago
  There are some huge confounding variables there. If they went to other jobs where their coworkers had no knowledge of their pretransition existence and noticed this shift, I think you'd have a compelling case.
- fidgewidge 4y ago
  Trans women also report that the hormones they take make them act and feel more feminine, so if women are more likely to feel that way given the exact same circumstance as men then you'd see the same results.
  - figlett3 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - janktank 4y ago
      [flagged]
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  Or maybe after imbibing large amounts of hormones and the desire to be both seen as women and accepted by women their perception of previously normal behavior changed and they now view it's as assumed persecution to fit in.
- figlett3 4y ago
  [flagged]

Is it possible that men experience this in equal numbers, but just don't interpret those interactions in the same way?

wonderwonder 4y ago

Or no one cared enough to ask them. I find this the more likely explanation.

positron6000 4y ago
[flagged]
- janktank 4y ago
  They're only 50% of the population, right?
  - positron6000 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - janktank 4y ago
      Isn't this the same kind of dismissive, silencing behavior the submission calls out? You don't seem to practice what you preach.
      - positron6001 4y ago
        no, because you haven't advanced any argument to be dismissed or silenced. literally just support for "won't someone think of the men?" that argument hasn't been silenced - you can find it in every right-wing crevice of the internet. and i'm not preaching anything, just out here observing how every women's issue on HN gets turned into "but what about the men?" or "they must be lying." anyways, i have to get back to work oppressing men in the workplace. unfortunately we'll never know their plight - as we can tell from the comments here, men definitely suffer in silence and are completely unheard.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  The study fails at its (apparent?) purpose of highlighting sexism in the workplace without that point of comparison, though. It'd still be pretty weak even with that (it's survey-based—observational studies are expensive and hard, but way better), but it's the bare minimum we'd need to even begin to figure out what kinds of interesting things the study might point toward for further examination.
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  "The rate of suicide is highest in middle-aged white men. In 2020, men died by suicide 3.88x more than women." https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/ https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/ Yeah screw those guys right, women are obviously experiencing way more stressful lives and have to deal with more negative things.
  - positron6001 4y ago
    this is an article about women in the workplace, not suicide stats or an attempt to measure some kind of vague notion of suffering ("negative things"?). but sure, let's turn an article about an issue that women face into one about men. again, won't someone think of the men? and only the men?
  - altairprime 4y ago
    There’s a labor department study that found that 25% of US unemployed men will flat out refuse paying work if it doesn’t pay them better than their peers — and then they resent their peers for having paying work. So of course men are more likely to get depressed commit suicide: “I’m worthless unless I’m worth more than he is” is a cruel and vicious ethos to believe in, and hands responsibility for mental well-being to their neighbor’s salary. (No doubt there’s other reasons too, but all the same: men self-inflict a lot of harm that’s unique to men. Men ought to do something about that.)
    - wonderwonder 4y ago
      Current unemployment rate is 3.4%. assume half are men. So 1.7%. 25% of that is 0.425% of men. Maybe not the greatest statistical measure to judge men's suicide rates on. How would men even know how much their coworkers make? I would very much like to see the wording of the question that drove this survey. Did the study ask the same question of women? If not then how do we know this is just not a human thing. Why base the suicide rates on that and not on getting cut down at work or any and all the issues the article says women are suffering from at a high rate? They seem more likely to explain a nearly 4x suicide rate.
- dyno12345 4y ago
  you don't know if gender is even a casually related factor if you don't collect data for both genders

HideousKojima 4y ago

Yeah, this is all self-reporting based mostly on perceptions of things as opposed to things that are objective and/or quantifiable. I don't know about you, but when I tell my coworkers/managers "Hey I found like 100 SQL injection vulnerabilities in this legacy codebase can I please have permission to fix them?" and they ignore me, I don't assume they're undermining me or jealous of my success. I assume they're just idiots.

yamtaddle 4y ago
I've had an idea I proposed in a meeting ignored, only to be greeted warmly and immediately adopted when proposed later in the exact same meeting... by a woman (and not one higher than me on the "totem pole", either). I didn't interpret it as sexism, but if I'd been a woman and her a man, I guess I probably would have taken it as not just sexism, but egregious sexism, the kind of blatant crap one can hardly believe exists. I gather that's actually one of the nasty things about sexism—it's hard to really be sure when what's happening is sexism, versus when it's just ordinary shitty things that happen to everyone.
- altairprime 4y ago
  Your anecdote lacks any information on existing social networking that may be in effect, that could provide a gender-agnostic explanation for this outcome. This outcome occurs quite regularly with engineers who disregard social networking with their leadership, regardless of the gender of those who have invested in networking and reap the rewards of it in recognition and “being heard”. You’d need to establish a pattern of refusal to network with non-women, in order to have grounds to pursue a gendered case, given only this anecdote as evidence.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Oh, of course. Again, I don't think it was sexism. But something that, under other circumstances, would look very very much like blatant sexism—might not be. Which causes problems for lots of women (I've heard) because they'll hesitate to act on actual sexism, due to all the second-guessing. This is relevant for the study, because "experienced a thing that, viewed through a certain lens, looks a ton like sexism" is something that I could answer "yes" to (more than once, actually! That was just the one that would have most-looked-like sexism if our positions had been reversed)... but I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Without some kind of baseline rate for this stuff, it's hard to tell what's actually going on. Further, as men and women might interpret the exact same events differently, you'd really need an observational study to begin to suss out the reality—a survey's not going to cut it, beyond maybe providing guidance on areas for further research.

altairprime 4y ago

[flagged]

lr4444lr 4y ago
There are some huge confounding variables there. If they went to other jobs where their coworkers had no knowledge of their pretransition existence and noticed this shift, I think you'd have a compelling case.
fidgewidge 4y ago
Trans women also report that the hormones they take make them act and feel more feminine, so if women are more likely to feel that way given the exact same circumstance as men then you'd see the same results.
- figlett3 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - janktank 4y ago
    [flagged]
wonderwonder 4y ago
Or maybe after imbibing large amounts of hormones and the desire to be both seen as women and accepted by women their perception of previously normal behavior changed and they now view it's as assumed persecution to fit in.
figlett3 4y ago
[flagged]