4 ms·

I went to Catholic school. The indoctrination is non-stop. Seminary I would gander is doubly worse. I don't know how true it is but I've long heard that many ga

by kodah 4y ago

I went to Catholic school. The indoctrination is non-stop. Seminary I would gander is doubly worse. I don't know how true it is but I've long heard that many gay priests discover that fact in Seminary after they've taken a vow of celibacy. I can imagine that's a very tough place to be mentally, especially after making such a commitment.

giantg2 4y ago
I went to a catholic school and the indoctrination wasn't that bad. The school would accept non-catholic pupils as well and never really pushed it on them.
- kodah 4y ago
  My school had non-Catholic pupils as well. After leaving I realized that a lot of what Catholic religious education is centered around is "acts of contrition". You're almost always guilty of something. They use these feelings of shame, guilt, and remorse to teach a lot of Catholic values alongside very strong language around things they don't like. For instance, when I was in school there was a story out of Atlanta, I think, where two gay men had their door kicked in while they were having sex, they were charged with some absurd sodomy law that was still on the books. My religious studies teachers point was that God punished all forms of sodomy, not just anal sex, and that any time you have pre-marital or sex without the intention of reproducing that you have sinned in a major way. I was 12, maybe 13 at the time. This is a small, isolated example but it's part of a pattern I recognized later in life. The stuff really does a number on you. It is worth noting I attended Catholic school in the South, closer to the border, so the church reflected more Mexican practices in Catholicism than say one in New York. I've learned from some folks that where you're taught makes a drastic difference.
  - NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
    I was raised in a Catholic home, attended Catholic school 13 years, and lifelong Mass-goer. I don't doubt that your anecdata is valid, but it's not universal. The only place I was subjected to guilt, shame, and remorse in a negative context was in my home by (Catholic lay) relatives (and mass media). They were in a "cultural Christian" demographic, raised in utterly secular households, and though they practiced the faith vigorously, didn't really believe or follow it at home, except by coincidence. By contrast, at school I experienced respect and encouragement from women in authority, and church was full of good news, and loving, joyful men and families. Surely my experience is also not in isolation.
    - kodah 4y ago
      Appreciate your input and outwardly not stomping on my experience. For what it's worth, the last paragraph of what I wrote agrees with you, not all experiences will be like mine and I've learned that as I've gotten older. I'm glad your experience was good, mine wasn't all bad, but I've had a lot of unpacking to do as an adult.
      - NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
        Thank you for describing my experience as "good" but of course church+school only comprised a sliver of my childhood, and I wound up as a homeless bum with C-PTSD and lost my faith due to a resounding dissonance between the lovely church+school experience versus the living Hell I experienced at the hands of my adoptive parents. When the Catholic abuse scandal broke, I was confused because my priests (and religious sisters) were nothing like that, but abuse by lay volunteers is real too, and it wasn't until 2019 when I put 2 and 2 together in that regard. So yes, A LOT of unpacking!
  - Pigalowda 4y ago
    Was it legionary? I went to one of those. They’re weird and now disgraced along with their founder.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure there's a ton of variation in the Catholic school experience. Certainly, a few are regarded as among the best schools in the US, while many others struggle to even match the local public schools, as far as educational quality. I know of at least one school that's diocese-affiliated but only loosely so, basically for marketing reasons, and does juuuuust enough to tick the boxes for that—they definitely don't do that kind of hard-sell Catholic indoctrination—and I doubt they're unique.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    As a new england catholic, the only reason any catholic related organization isn't as hell and brimstone and guilt filled is simply a desperate attempt to seem more "progressive" and retain a following. Plenty of Catholics are openly hostile towards the current pope because he has the audacity to not aggressively attack the gay community, even though he doesn't condone it. The organization itself is still rooted in angry, spanish inquisition style purity tests, and they openly push those views anywhere that isn't too progressive. For example, the same catholic church has pushed misinformation and propaganda all over africa to discourage condom use.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nyokodo 4y ago
> many gay priests discover that fact in Seminary after they've taken a vow of celebacy [sic]. Seminarians do not take vows of celibacy. Seminary is by design a time of testing a vocation. Additionally, I would like to see the data backing your “most gay priests” assertion.
- rationalist 4y ago
  Unless they edited their comment, it reads "many gay priests" (not "most") which is vague and can mean any number, small or large. Though a source would be helpful still.
- kodah 4y ago
  I could be wrong about vows of celibacy, but I was pretty sure they have at least commitments to celibacy. Here's a story that backs up what I've said: https://archive.ph/ehobt https://archive.ph/ehobt
  - goethes_kind 4y ago
    You are right. You are only eligible to be in a seminary if you're not married (ok exceptions exist, but then you cannot be a priest) and so long as you are not married you are not supposed to have sex.
    - muro 4y ago
      There is technically an exception with Catholics of Byzantine Rite, where married men can become priests and most priests are, in fact, married.
    - aidenn0 4y ago
      It's only in the Latin rite can you not be a priest when married; we had a Byzantine Catholic priest at our (Latin rite) church who was married, and the Byzantine Catholics are in full communion with Rome. Priests, however, may not marry so they need to have been married before taking their vows.

by kodah 4y ago

giantg2 4y ago

I went to a catholic school and the indoctrination wasn't that bad. The school would accept non-catholic pupils as well and never really pushed it on them.

kodah 4y ago
My school had non-Catholic pupils as well. After leaving I realized that a lot of what Catholic religious education is centered around is "acts of contrition". You're almost always guilty of something. They use these feelings of shame, guilt, and remorse to teach a lot of Catholic values alongside very strong language around things they don't like. For instance, when I was in school there was a story out of Atlanta, I think, where two gay men had their door kicked in while they were having sex, they were charged with some absurd sodomy law that was still on the books. My religious studies teachers point was that God punished all forms of sodomy, not just anal sex, and that any time you have pre-marital or sex without the intention of reproducing that you have sinned in a major way. I was 12, maybe 13 at the time. This is a small, isolated example but it's part of a pattern I recognized later in life. The stuff really does a number on you. It is worth noting I attended Catholic school in the South, closer to the border, so the church reflected more Mexican practices in Catholicism than say one in New York. I've learned from some folks that where you're taught makes a drastic difference.
- NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
  I was raised in a Catholic home, attended Catholic school 13 years, and lifelong Mass-goer. I don't doubt that your anecdata is valid, but it's not universal. The only place I was subjected to guilt, shame, and remorse in a negative context was in my home by (Catholic lay) relatives (and mass media). They were in a "cultural Christian" demographic, raised in utterly secular households, and though they practiced the faith vigorously, didn't really believe or follow it at home, except by coincidence. By contrast, at school I experienced respect and encouragement from women in authority, and church was full of good news, and loving, joyful men and families. Surely my experience is also not in isolation.
  - kodah 4y ago
    Appreciate your input and outwardly not stomping on my experience. For what it's worth, the last paragraph of what I wrote agrees with you, not all experiences will be like mine and I've learned that as I've gotten older. I'm glad your experience was good, mine wasn't all bad, but I've had a lot of unpacking to do as an adult.
    - NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
      Thank you for describing my experience as "good" but of course church+school only comprised a sliver of my childhood, and I wound up as a homeless bum with C-PTSD and lost my faith due to a resounding dissonance between the lovely church+school experience versus the living Hell I experienced at the hands of my adoptive parents. When the Catholic abuse scandal broke, I was confused because my priests (and religious sisters) were nothing like that, but abuse by lay volunteers is real too, and it wasn't until 2019 when I put 2 and 2 together in that regard. So yes, A LOT of unpacking!
- Pigalowda 4y ago
  Was it legionary? I went to one of those. They’re weird and now disgraced along with their founder.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure there's a ton of variation in the Catholic school experience. Certainly, a few are regarded as among the best schools in the US, while many others struggle to even match the local public schools, as far as educational quality. I know of at least one school that's diocese-affiliated but only loosely so, basically for marketing reasons, and does juuuuust enough to tick the boxes for that—they definitely don't do that kind of hard-sell Catholic indoctrination—and I doubt they're unique.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  As a new england catholic, the only reason any catholic related organization isn't as hell and brimstone and guilt filled is simply a desperate attempt to seem more "progressive" and retain a following. Plenty of Catholics are openly hostile towards the current pope because he has the audacity to not aggressively attack the gay community, even though he doesn't condone it. The organization itself is still rooted in angry, spanish inquisition style purity tests, and they openly push those views anywhere that isn't too progressive. For example, the same catholic church has pushed misinformation and propaganda all over africa to discourage condom use.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nyokodo 4y ago

> many gay priests discover that fact in Seminary after they've taken a vow of celebacy [sic]. Seminarians do not take vows of celibacy. Seminary is by design a time of testing a vocation. Additionally, I would like to see the data backing your “most gay priests” assertion.

rationalist 4y ago
Unless they edited their comment, it reads "many gay priests" (not "most") which is vague and can mean any number, small or large. Though a source would be helpful still.
kodah 4y ago
I could be wrong about vows of celibacy, but I was pretty sure they have at least commitments to celibacy. Here's a story that backs up what I've said: https://archive.ph/ehobt https://archive.ph/ehobt
- goethes_kind 4y ago
  You are right. You are only eligible to be in a seminary if you're not married (ok exceptions exist, but then you cannot be a priest) and so long as you are not married you are not supposed to have sex.
  - muro 4y ago
    There is technically an exception with Catholics of Byzantine Rite, where married men can become priests and most priests are, in fact, married.
  - aidenn0 4y ago
    It's only in the Latin rite can you not be a priest when married; we had a Byzantine Catholic priest at our (Latin rite) church who was married, and the Byzantine Catholics are in full communion with Rome. Priests, however, may not marry so they need to have been married before taking their vows.