4 ms·

I’ve always thought reparations have to be balanced against all of the benefits folks have gained from being born in the US in the 20th/21st century vs being bo

by DougN7 4y ago

I’ve always thought reparations have to be balanced against all of the benefits folks have gained from being born in the US in the 20th/21st century vs being born in Liberia (for example). Any economic help (unemployment, food stamps, medicare, etc), education differences and benefits, access and use of better(?) infrastructure, and just the benefits of upward mobility that some (definitely not all) have enjoyed here. Something a little more dicey to consider is costs of incarceration. In the end, it’s not like descendants of slaves haven’t benefitted at all from being born in the US. Having said all of that though, there are HUGE systemic problems, racism, and inequalities that all minorities face here. I’m just not sure reparations is the fix.

ashwagary 4y ago
>I’ve always thought reparations have to be balanced against all of the benefits folks have gained from being born in the US in the 20th/21st century The problem is a large % of the enslaved are descendants of people that were here before the US existed (either through the slave trade or indigenous, eg Seminoles), they are as foundational if not more foundational than the so called founding fathers. They not only built the country but also had generations of valuable labor stolen. Every US citizen gains from their service, the reverse is hardly true. It's like being a day 0 investor in Amazon and not being able to exercise trillions of dollars in options purely because Bezos doesnt like your skin color. How much do we deduct from what you are owed because of the convenience 2-day Amazon shipping gave you?
- dcow 4y ago
  Indigenous people did not found America in any meaningful sense of the word. I’m not saying they weren’t royally fucked out of land and labor. But lets not invent nonsense because we can’t recognize the great achievement of the founding fathers (many of whom were against slavery btw).
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    >Indigenous people did not found America in any meaningful sense of the word. Thats your opinion. The descendants of the people we are discussing say they did build the foundation and because their family investment of intellectual and sweat equity is sizable (conservative estimates are ~2 trillion hours of stolen labor) their case is not easy to dismiss.
- DougN7 4y ago
  I’m not convinced. What about all of my ancestors that got paid less than inflation adjusted minimum wage? Who were killed in wars fighting to keep the country free? Lots of people benefit from their work, so do I get a slice of the pie? What about the natives who were earlier displaced by other natives (wars between American Indians). Do we owe their descendants as well? And why does the distinction of before or after the US existed as a nation matter? Lots of people (black, white, whatever) have been treated unfairly in the past. It’s not possible or reasonable to go down that road. Reparations are too myopic in my view. Let’s fix educational inequality. We can do that. Fixing multi-generational cultural problems? Not sure, but giving people money is not the answer.
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    >whatabout Make a compelling and valid claim that the US damaged you or stole from you and you may be entitled to collect payment for damages. US slave owners, Jewish holocaust survivors, and Japanese WWII internment camp victims were all paid reparations. The story of the labor and opportunity stolen from the US black enslaved is clear and the reparations claim easy to validate, YMMV for the separate harder to prove whatabout claims you say exist.
    - DougN7 4y ago
      So I have to prove what was stolen from ME, but others have to prove what was stolen from people 2-8 generations back? Notice how your examples of reparations are to those who were directly harmed, which seems fair. Saying I owe someone for what our great-great-great-great-grandfathers did to their great-great-great-great-grandfathers?
      - ashwagary 4y ago
        >So I have to prove what was stolen from ME The nitpick falls flat since brevity was the objective of my statement. "You and/or your ancestors" works. As long as the state that damaged your family still exists, a claim can be made. Yours is also a weak counter because the precedent is already set in similar cases. Many Jewish reparations recipients were never in concentration camps but their relatives and/or descendants could prove the damages.

by DougN7 4y ago

ashwagary 4y ago

>I’ve always thought reparations have to be balanced against all of the benefits folks have gained from being born in the US in the 20th/21st century The problem is a large % of the enslaved are descendants of people that were here before the US existed (either through the slave trade or indigenous, eg Seminoles), they are as foundational if not more foundational than the so called founding fathers. They not only built the country but also had generations of valuable labor stolen. Every US citizen gains from their service, the reverse is hardly true. It's like being a day 0 investor in Amazon and not being able to exercise trillions of dollars in options purely because Bezos doesnt like your skin color. How much do we deduct from what you are owed because of the convenience 2-day Amazon shipping gave you?

dcow 4y ago
Indigenous people did not found America in any meaningful sense of the word. I’m not saying they weren’t royally fucked out of land and labor. But lets not invent nonsense because we can’t recognize the great achievement of the founding fathers (many of whom were against slavery btw).
- ashwagary 4y ago
  >Indigenous people did not found America in any meaningful sense of the word. Thats your opinion. The descendants of the people we are discussing say they did build the foundation and because their family investment of intellectual and sweat equity is sizable (conservative estimates are ~2 trillion hours of stolen labor) their case is not easy to dismiss.
DougN7 4y ago
I’m not convinced. What about all of my ancestors that got paid less than inflation adjusted minimum wage? Who were killed in wars fighting to keep the country free? Lots of people benefit from their work, so do I get a slice of the pie? What about the natives who were earlier displaced by other natives (wars between American Indians). Do we owe their descendants as well? And why does the distinction of before or after the US existed as a nation matter? Lots of people (black, white, whatever) have been treated unfairly in the past. It’s not possible or reasonable to go down that road. Reparations are too myopic in my view. Let’s fix educational inequality. We can do that. Fixing multi-generational cultural problems? Not sure, but giving people money is not the answer.
- ashwagary 4y ago
  >whatabout Make a compelling and valid claim that the US damaged you or stole from you and you may be entitled to collect payment for damages. US slave owners, Jewish holocaust survivors, and Japanese WWII internment camp victims were all paid reparations. The story of the labor and opportunity stolen from the US black enslaved is clear and the reparations claim easy to validate, YMMV for the separate harder to prove whatabout claims you say exist.
  - DougN7 4y ago
    So I have to prove what was stolen from ME, but others have to prove what was stolen from people 2-8 generations back? Notice how your examples of reparations are to those who were directly harmed, which seems fair. Saying I owe someone for what our great-great-great-great-grandfathers did to their great-great-great-great-grandfathers?
    - ashwagary 4y ago
      >So I have to prove what was stolen from ME The nitpick falls flat since brevity was the objective of my statement. "You and/or your ancestors" works. As long as the state that damaged your family still exists, a claim can be made. Yours is also a weak counter because the precedent is already set in similar cases. Many Jewish reparations recipients were never in concentration camps but their relatives and/or descendants could prove the damages.