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Windows and MacOS probably are trying to make sure the upgrades don't fail using a lot of brute force. Linux distros are more "if it breaks, you get to keep the

Windows and MacOS probably are trying to make sure the upgrades don't fail using a lot of brute force. Linux distros are more "if it breaks, you get to keep the pieces".

capableweb 4y ago
So rather than focusing on making sure the upgrades work, they check during the upgrades actually do work? Compared to Linux, which makes sure the upgrades work so no checking is necessary? And this is what takes the majority of time and requires multiple reboots during the installation process and requires a slow first login? I don't know, that sounds very sloppy if true and not something I'd expect from professional OSes developed by huge companies.
- ayende 4y ago
  To give context, what happens if you lose power midway through? One of the things Windows will do is first lay out the work to revert all changes in that happens (across potentially thousands of files). It also need to flush them to disk (very slow, even on SSD) and then perform in a manner that would survive all sorts of failures. That is pretty expensive.
  - InfamousRece 4y ago
    Some modern linux distros use snapper to create a snapshot prior to upgrading. This snapshot can be used to roll back the upgrade. Not only in case of power outage but also if the upgrade introduces bugs or other issues. The upgrade is still fast, so it is the best of both worlds?
- ayende 4y ago
  Here are good examples of the problem: https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/pjcnh0/power_outage_broken_system/ https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/pjcnh0/power_out... https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/453074/power-loss-while-updating-arch-linux-cant-boot-into-os-anymore https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/453074/power-loss-w... https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=106441 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=106441
  - capableweb 4y ago
    Are you trying to say Windows/macOS won't break if they lose power in the middle of the upgrade process? I remember long time ago (maybe back in the xp/vista days) when my Windows installation broke when we had a power outage during my upgrade. Haven't happened lately, but searching online I can see bunch of people having the same problem with latest Windows versions and macOS as well, requiring a reinstall to fix.
- darthrupert 4y ago
  I don't know the specifics about Windows. They probably have a ton of legacy their users have to suffer from. Macs afaik just replace the whole OS on every upgrade. Takes some time but tends to be kinda atomic without requiring complexity.
bityard 4y ago
I can't speak to all distributions but Debian and derivatives are actually pretty good about not leaving the system in an unrecoverable state. The only times I hear about an `apt update` breaking is when someone runs out of disk space or has created a FrankenDebian with third-party repos. These failures are not always straightforward to fix, but they are generally recoverable. The systems are knowable because they are open source and lots of people are familiar with their inner workings. Contrast with Mac and Win, which are essentially black boxes that only the company's developers understand (if we're lucky). It's been more than a decade since I used Win or Mac for anything important but back then the standard advice before any major upgrade was "make a backup" because these had a reasonable chance of putting your system into a state that required a reinstall.
- darthrupert 4y ago
  >I can't speak to all distributions but Debian and derivatives are actually pretty good about not leaving the system in an unrecoverable state. They sure do, and I cannot remember the last time my Arch Linux would have broken because of an upgrade. While the packaging systems of Linux distributions are pretty damned good, I believe their stability is more due to great individual efforts of the package developers than any systematic design principle. Also the stability of critical upstream packages has improved greatly. NixOS's stability derives more from systematic design, but perhaps ironically, NixOS is the only Linux distro I remember having soft bricked in the last 5 years by running an upgrade.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    I've borked both my Arch installations and NixOS (by my own stupidly, not just upgrades) a couple of times. What's really fresh with NixOS is how easy it is to go back, just reboot and select the image from when the system worked. Getting a Arch installation to work after borking it can be a bit harder.

Windows and MacOS probably are trying to make sure the upgrades don't fail using a lot of brute force. Linux distros are more "if it breaks, you get to keep the pieces".

capableweb 4y ago

So rather than focusing on making sure the upgrades work, they check during the upgrades actually do work? Compared to Linux, which makes sure the upgrades work so no checking is necessary? And this is what takes the majority of time and requires multiple reboots during the installation process and requires a slow first login? I don't know, that sounds very sloppy if true and not something I'd expect from professional OSes developed by huge companies.

ayende 4y ago
To give context, what happens if you lose power midway through? One of the things Windows will do is first lay out the work to revert all changes in that happens (across potentially thousands of files). It also need to flush them to disk (very slow, even on SSD) and then perform in a manner that would survive all sorts of failures. That is pretty expensive.
- InfamousRece 4y ago
  Some modern linux distros use snapper to create a snapshot prior to upgrading. This snapshot can be used to roll back the upgrade. Not only in case of power outage but also if the upgrade introduces bugs or other issues. The upgrade is still fast, so it is the best of both worlds?
ayende 4y ago
Here are good examples of the problem: https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/pjcnh0/power_outage_broken_system/ https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/pjcnh0/power_out... https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/453074/power-loss-while-updating-arch-linux-cant-boot-into-os-anymore https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/453074/power-loss-w... https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=106441 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=106441
- capableweb 4y ago
  Are you trying to say Windows/macOS won't break if they lose power in the middle of the upgrade process? I remember long time ago (maybe back in the xp/vista days) when my Windows installation broke when we had a power outage during my upgrade. Haven't happened lately, but searching online I can see bunch of people having the same problem with latest Windows versions and macOS as well, requiring a reinstall to fix.
darthrupert 4y ago
I don't know the specifics about Windows. They probably have a ton of legacy their users have to suffer from. Macs afaik just replace the whole OS on every upgrade. Takes some time but tends to be kinda atomic without requiring complexity.

bityard 4y ago

I can't speak to all distributions but Debian and derivatives are actually pretty good about not leaving the system in an unrecoverable state. The only times I hear about an `apt update` breaking is when someone runs out of disk space or has created a FrankenDebian with third-party repos. These failures are not always straightforward to fix, but they are generally recoverable. The systems are knowable because they are open source and lots of people are familiar with their inner workings. Contrast with Mac and Win, which are essentially black boxes that only the company's developers understand (if we're lucky). It's been more than a decade since I used Win or Mac for anything important but back then the standard advice before any major upgrade was "make a backup" because these had a reasonable chance of putting your system into a state that required a reinstall.

darthrupert 4y ago
>I can't speak to all distributions but Debian and derivatives are actually pretty good about not leaving the system in an unrecoverable state. They sure do, and I cannot remember the last time my Arch Linux would have broken because of an upgrade. While the packaging systems of Linux distributions are pretty damned good, I believe their stability is more due to great individual efforts of the package developers than any systematic design principle. Also the stability of critical upstream packages has improved greatly. NixOS's stability derives more from systematic design, but perhaps ironically, NixOS is the only Linux distro I remember having soft bricked in the last 5 years by running an upgrade.
- capableweb 4y ago
  I've borked both my Arch installations and NixOS (by my own stupidly, not just upgrades) a couple of times. What's really fresh with NixOS is how easy it is to go back, just reboot and select the image from when the system worked. Getting a Arch installation to work after borking it can be a bit harder.