4 ms·

As with any social justice topic, I always ask: what is the end game? When does the injustice stop? When will we be happy? If you can't provide an answer, then

by dcow 4y ago

As with any social justice topic, I always ask: what is the end game? When does the injustice stop? When will we be happy? If you can't provide an answer, then I am hesitant to buy in. If you can provide an answer, then it signals to me that you are fighting to solve a clear problem, one for which there is a clear and achievable solution, and so my time and effort are worth contributing. So, SJWs of HN: would a payment of 360K to every black person with slave lineage be enough? Would we be done with race issues and finally able to move on to other problems? If yes, I'm in and I'll even donate to fund the reparations (though I disagree with the concept, personally). But if no, then what does this achieve and how would it be (were it to actually happen) anything other than a powerful political group voting themselves money straight from the treasury?

uejfiweun 4y ago
Wow, this is a great way to point out the logical inconsistencies behind many of these feel-good social justice topics. Going to remember this tactic.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ashwagary 4y ago
>would a payment of 360K to every black person with slave lineage be enough? Would we be done with race issues and finally able to move on to other problems? Its a debt owed, not a favor. Nobody from the harmed group will owe anyone anything in return. Since the payment was delayed and robbery was a continual and extended practice of the dominant society in partnership with the local, state, and federal governments, any additional verifiable claim they make for damages must be considered and if valid, they must be compensated for. The benefit of paying a hefty penalty for massive crimes against fellow citizens, is nobody will feel comfortable repeating the crimes on your family or mine in the future when they know the high price they will pay.
- yucky 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    Read who qualifies for reparations, it's pretty straight forward [0] [0] https://www.kqed.org/news/11909471/unpacking-reparations-eligibility-in-california https://www.kqed.org/news/11909471/unpacking-reparations-eli...
    - yucky 4y ago
      It's not straightforward at all because it ignores who has to pay. You say it's a debt owed, but the people paying the debt are just taxpayers in general. That isn't a debt they incurred.
- dcow 4y ago
  > Nobody from the harmed group will owe anyone anything in return. So is that a yes or a no? Come on give me a straight answer. Does this even the scales of justice?
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    >So is that a yes or a no? Is what a "yes or no"? The question isnt clear.
    - dcow 4y ago
      Which question isn’t clear?
- DougN7 4y ago
  I’ve always thought reparations have to be balanced against all of the benefits folks have gained from being born in the US in the 20th/21st century vs being born in Liberia (for example). Any economic help (unemployment, food stamps, medicare, etc), education differences and benefits, access and use of better(?) infrastructure, and just the benefits of upward mobility that some (definitely not all) have enjoyed here. Something a little more dicey to consider is costs of incarceration. In the end, it’s not like descendants of slaves haven’t benefitted at all from being born in the US. Having said all of that though, there are HUGE systemic problems, racism, and inequalities that all minorities face here. I’m just not sure reparations is the fix.
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    >I’ve always thought reparations have to be balanced against all of the benefits folks have gained from being born in the US in the 20th/21st century The problem is a large % of the enslaved are descendants of people that were here before the US existed (either through the slave trade or indigenous, eg Seminoles), they are as foundational if not more foundational than the so called founding fathers. They not only built the country but also had generations of valuable labor stolen. Every US citizen gains from their service, the reverse is hardly true. It's like being a day 0 investor in Amazon and not being able to exercise trillions of dollars in options purely because Bezos doesnt like your skin color. How much do we deduct from what you are owed because of the convenience 2-day Amazon shipping gave you?
    - dcow 4y ago
      Indigenous people did not found America in any meaningful sense of the word. I’m not saying they weren’t royally fucked out of land and labor. But lets not invent nonsense because we can’t recognize the great achievement of the founding fathers (many of whom were against slavery btw).
      - ashwagary 4y ago
        >Indigenous people did not found America in any meaningful sense of the word. Thats your opinion. The descendants of the people we are discussing say they did build the foundation and because their family investment of intellectual and sweat equity is sizable (conservative estimates are ~2 trillion hours of stolen labor) their case is not easy to dismiss.

by dcow 4y ago

uejfiweun 4y ago

Wow, this is a great way to point out the logical inconsistencies behind many of these feel-good social justice topics. Going to remember this tactic.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ashwagary 4y ago

>would a payment of 360K to every black person with slave lineage be enough? Would we be done with race issues and finally able to move on to other problems? Its a debt owed, not a favor. Nobody from the harmed group will owe anyone anything in return. Since the payment was delayed and robbery was a continual and extended practice of the dominant society in partnership with the local, state, and federal governments, any additional verifiable claim they make for damages must be considered and if valid, they must be compensated for. The benefit of paying a hefty penalty for massive crimes against fellow citizens, is nobody will feel comfortable repeating the crimes on your family or mine in the future when they know the high price they will pay.

yucky 4y ago
[flagged]
- ashwagary 4y ago
  Read who qualifies for reparations, it's pretty straight forward [0] [0] https://www.kqed.org/news/11909471/unpacking-reparations-eligibility-in-california https://www.kqed.org/news/11909471/unpacking-reparations-eli...
  - yucky 4y ago
    It's not straightforward at all because it ignores who has to pay. You say it's a debt owed, but the people paying the debt are just taxpayers in general. That isn't a debt they incurred.
dcow 4y ago
> Nobody from the harmed group will owe anyone anything in return. So is that a yes or a no? Come on give me a straight answer. Does this even the scales of justice?
- ashwagary 4y ago
  >So is that a yes or a no? Is what a "yes or no"? The question isnt clear.
  - dcow 4y ago
    Which question isn’t clear?
DougN7 4y ago
I’ve always thought reparations have to be balanced against all of the benefits folks have gained from being born in the US in the 20th/21st century vs being born in Liberia (for example). Any economic help (unemployment, food stamps, medicare, etc), education differences and benefits, access and use of better(?) infrastructure, and just the benefits of upward mobility that some (definitely not all) have enjoyed here. Something a little more dicey to consider is costs of incarceration. In the end, it’s not like descendants of slaves haven’t benefitted at all from being born in the US. Having said all of that though, there are HUGE systemic problems, racism, and inequalities that all minorities face here. I’m just not sure reparations is the fix.
- ashwagary 4y ago
  >I’ve always thought reparations have to be balanced against all of the benefits folks have gained from being born in the US in the 20th/21st century The problem is a large % of the enslaved are descendants of people that were here before the US existed (either through the slave trade or indigenous, eg Seminoles), they are as foundational if not more foundational than the so called founding fathers. They not only built the country but also had generations of valuable labor stolen. Every US citizen gains from their service, the reverse is hardly true. It's like being a day 0 investor in Amazon and not being able to exercise trillions of dollars in options purely because Bezos doesnt like your skin color. How much do we deduct from what you are owed because of the convenience 2-day Amazon shipping gave you?
  - dcow 4y ago
    Indigenous people did not found America in any meaningful sense of the word. I’m not saying they weren’t royally fucked out of land and labor. But lets not invent nonsense because we can’t recognize the great achievement of the founding fathers (many of whom were against slavery btw).
    - ashwagary 4y ago
      >Indigenous people did not found America in any meaningful sense of the word. Thats your opinion. The descendants of the people we are discussing say they did build the foundation and because their family investment of intellectual and sweat equity is sizable (conservative estimates are ~2 trillion hours of stolen labor) their case is not easy to dismiss.