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I've never seen this, but I'll admit some ignorance. Have there been 2A-themed protests following 4A violations (as in, civil asset forfeitures of money, say),

I've never seen this, but I'll admit some ignorance. Have there been 2A-themed protests following 4A violations (as in, civil asset forfeitures of money, say), similar to those we see when the 2A is challenged in some way? Google searches show only passing references to the fourth amendment on the NRA site. It looks like most arguments against red flag laws rely on the 2A instead.

giantg2 4y ago
Yeah, like I said, it's usually within the limited scope of 2A issues, but could be expanded to other areas. The red flag laws are something that hasn't been addressed. The thing about that is you can effectively circumvent the 4th amendment by going through the civil court since the protections are so much more limited. That's why TX wanted that civil abortion law and CA wanted to copy it for guns. No reason that can't be expanded to immediately sieze other property without a crime unless the protections are expanded. There are some limits to it's application to civil assest forfeiture since most firearms generally have a paper trail to prove ownership. One of the big problems is that many of the coverage of the cases focuses on 2A and the 4A part gets hidden. Of course that makes for a bigger headline for the involved groups. Or they can be in specific industries that a normal person doesn't care about (FFL blanket record copies). Recent case with more prominent 4th amendment angle. https://crescentcitytimes.com/supreme-court-sides-with-goa-in-case-involving-2nd-4th-amendments/ https://crescentcitytimes.com/supreme-court-sides-with-goa-i... General stuff about searches. https://jslawgroup.com/fourth-amendment-gun-rights/ https://jslawgroup.com/fourth-amendment-gun-rights/ ATF has been performing entire book copies when they're only supposed to copy data related to specific guns/individuals related to a crime or error. https://fflconsultinggroup.com/firearms-record-books-atf-form-4473-and-atfs-authority-to-copy-records/ https://fflconsultinggroup.com/firearms-record-books-atf-for...
- dpkirchner 4y ago
  > One of the big problems is that many of the coverage of the cases focuses on 2A and the 4A part gets hidden. The cynic in me thinks that the 2A gets more press because it's easy to find commercial and foreign government support for their organizations. 4A proponents don't have much if anything to sell.
icelancer 4y ago
2A zealots tend to be very protective of their property being unlawfully searched or seized. The whole Sovereign Citizen movement is emblematic of the extremes in this regard, but it's absolutely true overall. As someone else said, though, the 4A doesn't really give companies and people much to sell to one another in that section of society. They would seriously benefit from password safety products, better choice of hardware, and full-disk encryption, but this group doesn't tend to have a lot of electronics technical chops. I say this as someone who recreationally shoots long arms and works in a tech/science field. The Venn diagram hardly overlaps. Which is a shame for both sides, I think.

giantg2 4y ago

Yeah, like I said, it's usually within the limited scope of 2A issues, but could be expanded to other areas. The red flag laws are something that hasn't been addressed. The thing about that is you can effectively circumvent the 4th amendment by going through the civil court since the protections are so much more limited. That's why TX wanted that civil abortion law and CA wanted to copy it for guns. No reason that can't be expanded to immediately sieze other property without a crime unless the protections are expanded. There are some limits to it's application to civil assest forfeiture since most firearms generally have a paper trail to prove ownership. One of the big problems is that many of the coverage of the cases focuses on 2A and the 4A part gets hidden. Of course that makes for a bigger headline for the involved groups. Or they can be in specific industries that a normal person doesn't care about (FFL blanket record copies). Recent case with more prominent 4th amendment angle. https://crescentcitytimes.com/supreme-court-sides-with-goa-in-case-involving-2nd-4th-amendments/ https://crescentcitytimes.com/supreme-court-sides-with-goa-i... General stuff about searches. https://jslawgroup.com/fourth-amendment-gun-rights/ https://jslawgroup.com/fourth-amendment-gun-rights/ ATF has been performing entire book copies when they're only supposed to copy data related to specific guns/individuals related to a crime or error. https://fflconsultinggroup.com/firearms-record-books-atf-form-4473-and-atfs-authority-to-copy-records/ https://fflconsultinggroup.com/firearms-record-books-atf-for...

dpkirchner 4y ago
> One of the big problems is that many of the coverage of the cases focuses on 2A and the 4A part gets hidden. The cynic in me thinks that the 2A gets more press because it's easy to find commercial and foreign government support for their organizations. 4A proponents don't have much if anything to sell.

icelancer 4y ago

2A zealots tend to be very protective of their property being unlawfully searched or seized. The whole Sovereign Citizen movement is emblematic of the extremes in this regard, but it's absolutely true overall. As someone else said, though, the 4A doesn't really give companies and people much to sell to one another in that section of society. They would seriously benefit from password safety products, better choice of hardware, and full-disk encryption, but this group doesn't tend to have a lot of electronics technical chops. I say this as someone who recreationally shoots long arms and works in a tech/science field. The Venn diagram hardly overlaps. Which is a shame for both sides, I think.