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The idea of producing electricity on site is appealing to me primarily because it can provide a level of independence for a business that they probably don't se

The idea of producing electricity on site is appealing to me primarily because it can provide a level of independence for a business that they probably don't see today. Using existing electrical infrastructure would do the job functionally, but has a similar problem to that of fuel: you have to buy it from a supplier. Perhaps with fuel there are multiple suppliers you can buy from, but with electricity you often have only one choice of supplier. With on site generation, you have another option that's either immune, or less impacted by, suppliers' changes in pricing, outages, or other shenanigans. Anecdotally, I know that upgrading electrical infrastructure in rural places (in this case remote southern Utah) can be very expensive. Someone in my extended family built a 2 bedroom home/cabin on a remote ranch. The ranch is already wired up with what I assume is a pretty overkill connection. It's a working ranch with a workshop, etc. Lots of high voltage, high amp outlets. The new cabin, located about 500 feet from the "main" structures, needed a hookup, and it needed to be metered separately due to local code requirements. The local electricity utility charged over $20k to extend the existing line. The existing line didn't need any upgrades to support the extension. I'm not saying it shouldn't cost anything, but $20k is a hell of a lot of money for 500 feet or so of wire. Also, that $20k was for the wire and various transformers/service panels only. Said family member had to hire the one contractor approved by the util to install two small telephone poles to carry the wire. What that cost I'm not sure, but it was steep, as it covered a week of labor costs for a team of 4 as well. Solar and/or wind would have probably been a better choice for that hookup, but said family member believes anything "green" is some sort of trap devised by anti-American socialists. Why owning their electricity supply wasn't the obvious choice over a government subsidized utility, I'll never know, but that's the choice they made.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
For comparison, I recently paid $10k to trench 200ft and lay cable of sufficient size for a 400A electrical service entrance upgrade. The utility upgraded the distribution transformer at their cost. That $20k is very reasonable for what was provided. The cost for a solar install is roughly $2-$4/watt (panels, inverters, and all the electrical to grid tie), depending on geographic location. Batteries add to that. High level, this is the cost unfortunately. On site generation typically doesn't save you a substantial amount until you're far from the utility hand off, where they're going to charge you hundreds of thousands of dollars to connect to your structure. From an energy sovereignty perspective, yeah, it's a reasonable path if you already have a sufficient service entrance to grid tie and can afford the necessary trimmings. I've talked to folks who have gone big and spent ~$200k+ in the process; that is beyond the means of many though.
- buffington 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing some better numbers. For the home I described, I priced out a solar system with battery bank that I think would have provided well beyond the needs of the home, and depending on how fancy the system estimated the cost to be between $15-$25k. I basically looked at average energy usage for homes of a similar size in the area and doubled it. Given that the home was built in the past 5 years using modern insulation and building techniques, and the average age of comparable homes was 20+ years old, I figured that doubling my estimates would provide plenty of capacity. I have no idea if I'm right. That said, if it were me, I'd have picked solar even if the cost was the same or even a bit more. The property has plenty of space for panels, rarely isn't sunny, and doesn't get a lot of snow (this year being an exception, but even then, maybe only saw enough snow to make an impact on a single day here or there so far). If I were sizing a system for the main ranch buildings, it'd easily approach the $200k you mentioned. It takes a lot of juice to supply a machine shop, irrigation systems, barn heating, lighting etc. For that, a combo of solar, wind (which there's no shortage of in southern Utah) and traditional util provided electricity would make more sense (but would still cost a lot up front).
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Keep in mind, in the US, the entire solar generator system (as well as electrical upgrades to support it, such as panel or service entrance upgrades), is eligible for a 30% federal tax credit. I can't speak to other jurisdictions unfortunately. https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/homeowners-guide-federal-tax-credit-solar-photovoltaics https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/homeowners-guide-federal-t...

toomuchtodo 4y ago

For comparison, I recently paid $10k to trench 200ft and lay cable of sufficient size for a 400A electrical service entrance upgrade. The utility upgraded the distribution transformer at their cost. That $20k is very reasonable for what was provided. The cost for a solar install is roughly $2-$4/watt (panels, inverters, and all the electrical to grid tie), depending on geographic location. Batteries add to that. High level, this is the cost unfortunately. On site generation typically doesn't save you a substantial amount until you're far from the utility hand off, where they're going to charge you hundreds of thousands of dollars to connect to your structure. From an energy sovereignty perspective, yeah, it's a reasonable path if you already have a sufficient service entrance to grid tie and can afford the necessary trimmings. I've talked to folks who have gone big and spent ~$200k+ in the process; that is beyond the means of many though.

buffington 4y ago
Thanks for sharing some better numbers. For the home I described, I priced out a solar system with battery bank that I think would have provided well beyond the needs of the home, and depending on how fancy the system estimated the cost to be between $15-$25k. I basically looked at average energy usage for homes of a similar size in the area and doubled it. Given that the home was built in the past 5 years using modern insulation and building techniques, and the average age of comparable homes was 20+ years old, I figured that doubling my estimates would provide plenty of capacity. I have no idea if I'm right. That said, if it were me, I'd have picked solar even if the cost was the same or even a bit more. The property has plenty of space for panels, rarely isn't sunny, and doesn't get a lot of snow (this year being an exception, but even then, maybe only saw enough snow to make an impact on a single day here or there so far). If I were sizing a system for the main ranch buildings, it'd easily approach the $200k you mentioned. It takes a lot of juice to supply a machine shop, irrigation systems, barn heating, lighting etc. For that, a combo of solar, wind (which there's no shortage of in southern Utah) and traditional util provided electricity would make more sense (but would still cost a lot up front).
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Keep in mind, in the US, the entire solar generator system (as well as electrical upgrades to support it, such as panel or service entrance upgrades), is eligible for a 30% federal tax credit. I can't speak to other jurisdictions unfortunately. https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/homeowners-guide-federal-tax-credit-solar-photovoltaics https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/homeowners-guide-federal-t...