3 ms·

I wish the 2nd amendment movement had a sister group with the same vigor for the 4th amendment. What you proposed is the sensible legislation that we need to en

I wish the 2nd amendment movement had a sister group with the same vigor for the 4th amendment. What you proposed is the sensible legislation that we need to ensure our longevity as a “free society” One could almost say that aggressive opposition to this exposes a true tyrant.

giantg2 4y ago
Interestingly enough that group does tends to advocate for 4th amendment protections, at least within limited scope. Although those same concepts and case law could be applied to other areas. So it's possible to piggyback off of it. Some examples are red flag laws which use the civil system to avoid the protections of the criminal system for the government to seize property (beyond a reasonable doubt, right to representation, ex parte protections, etc). Police stopping, questioning, and sometimes seizing guns (property) without any crime being committed and with some of those guns (property) being destroyed. There is of course pushback on things related to data reporting such as registries (Ring is essentially a registry that allowed police to contact the individual in this article), new credit card merchant codes, and data abuses of carry permit information (disclosing names and addresses of gun owner which is basically a map for thieves).
- dpkirchner 4y ago
  I've never seen this, but I'll admit some ignorance. Have there been 2A-themed protests following 4A violations (as in, civil asset forfeitures of money, say), similar to those we see when the 2A is challenged in some way? Google searches show only passing references to the fourth amendment on the NRA site. It looks like most arguments against red flag laws rely on the 2A instead.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Yeah, like I said, it's usually within the limited scope of 2A issues, but could be expanded to other areas. The red flag laws are something that hasn't been addressed. The thing about that is you can effectively circumvent the 4th amendment by going through the civil court since the protections are so much more limited. That's why TX wanted that civil abortion law and CA wanted to copy it for guns. No reason that can't be expanded to immediately sieze other property without a crime unless the protections are expanded. There are some limits to it's application to civil assest forfeiture since most firearms generally have a paper trail to prove ownership. One of the big problems is that many of the coverage of the cases focuses on 2A and the 4A part gets hidden. Of course that makes for a bigger headline for the involved groups. Or they can be in specific industries that a normal person doesn't care about (FFL blanket record copies). Recent case with more prominent 4th amendment angle. https://crescentcitytimes.com/supreme-court-sides-with-goa-in-case-involving-2nd-4th-amendments/ https://crescentcitytimes.com/supreme-court-sides-with-goa-i... General stuff about searches. https://jslawgroup.com/fourth-amendment-gun-rights/ https://jslawgroup.com/fourth-amendment-gun-rights/ ATF has been performing entire book copies when they're only supposed to copy data related to specific guns/individuals related to a crime or error. https://fflconsultinggroup.com/firearms-record-books-atf-form-4473-and-atfs-authority-to-copy-records/ https://fflconsultinggroup.com/firearms-record-books-atf-for...
    - dpkirchner 4y ago
      > One of the big problems is that many of the coverage of the cases focuses on 2A and the 4A part gets hidden. The cynic in me thinks that the 2A gets more press because it's easy to find commercial and foreign government support for their organizations. 4A proponents don't have much if anything to sell.
  - icelancer 4y ago
    2A zealots tend to be very protective of their property being unlawfully searched or seized. The whole Sovereign Citizen movement is emblematic of the extremes in this regard, but it's absolutely true overall. As someone else said, though, the 4A doesn't really give companies and people much to sell to one another in that section of society. They would seriously benefit from password safety products, better choice of hardware, and full-disk encryption, but this group doesn't tend to have a lot of electronics technical chops. I say this as someone who recreationally shoots long arms and works in a tech/science field. The Venn diagram hardly overlaps. Which is a shame for both sides, I think.
mywittyname 4y ago
There's a financial component to the 2A (and 1A) that doesn't really exist for the 4A. So the 4A will never have the same level of financial support as the other two.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Is that always going to be true though. As data becomes more valuable, being able to search&seize that data from anywhere anytime sure seems suspect to me.
  - mrWiz 4y ago
    Firearm manufacturers have a financial motivation to promote 2A rights. Who would have a financial motivation for 4A?
    - dylan604 4y ago
      Don't they also have incentive to protect the 4th as well so that when "they" come to take those arms that they keep shouting "they" are doing, that a strong 4th would prevent them from search&seizing?
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        I think their view tends to be that the 2nd amendment alone prevents that. I rarely hear them talk about the 4th. However, I am 100% certain that if they stop viewing the 2nd as being so protective, they would become very vocal about the 4th instead.
AdrianB1 4y ago
I had the impression that the kind of people that go for 2nd also go for 1st, 4th and all rights in general, but because I am living on a different continent my impression may be wrong.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  My experience is that the 2nd amendment people are really laser-focused on the second amendment and don't care so much about the other ones. The only time I've heard them express an interest in the other amendments is when they intersect with the second.

giantg2 4y ago

Interestingly enough that group does tends to advocate for 4th amendment protections, at least within limited scope. Although those same concepts and case law could be applied to other areas. So it's possible to piggyback off of it. Some examples are red flag laws which use the civil system to avoid the protections of the criminal system for the government to seize property (beyond a reasonable doubt, right to representation, ex parte protections, etc). Police stopping, questioning, and sometimes seizing guns (property) without any crime being committed and with some of those guns (property) being destroyed. There is of course pushback on things related to data reporting such as registries (Ring is essentially a registry that allowed police to contact the individual in this article), new credit card merchant codes, and data abuses of carry permit information (disclosing names and addresses of gun owner which is basically a map for thieves).

dpkirchner 4y ago
I've never seen this, but I'll admit some ignorance. Have there been 2A-themed protests following 4A violations (as in, civil asset forfeitures of money, say), similar to those we see when the 2A is challenged in some way? Google searches show only passing references to the fourth amendment on the NRA site. It looks like most arguments against red flag laws rely on the 2A instead.
- giantg2 4y ago
  Yeah, like I said, it's usually within the limited scope of 2A issues, but could be expanded to other areas. The red flag laws are something that hasn't been addressed. The thing about that is you can effectively circumvent the 4th amendment by going through the civil court since the protections are so much more limited. That's why TX wanted that civil abortion law and CA wanted to copy it for guns. No reason that can't be expanded to immediately sieze other property without a crime unless the protections are expanded. There are some limits to it's application to civil assest forfeiture since most firearms generally have a paper trail to prove ownership. One of the big problems is that many of the coverage of the cases focuses on 2A and the 4A part gets hidden. Of course that makes for a bigger headline for the involved groups. Or they can be in specific industries that a normal person doesn't care about (FFL blanket record copies). Recent case with more prominent 4th amendment angle. https://crescentcitytimes.com/supreme-court-sides-with-goa-in-case-involving-2nd-4th-amendments/ https://crescentcitytimes.com/supreme-court-sides-with-goa-i... General stuff about searches. https://jslawgroup.com/fourth-amendment-gun-rights/ https://jslawgroup.com/fourth-amendment-gun-rights/ ATF has been performing entire book copies when they're only supposed to copy data related to specific guns/individuals related to a crime or error. https://fflconsultinggroup.com/firearms-record-books-atf-form-4473-and-atfs-authority-to-copy-records/ https://fflconsultinggroup.com/firearms-record-books-atf-for...
  - dpkirchner 4y ago
    > One of the big problems is that many of the coverage of the cases focuses on 2A and the 4A part gets hidden. The cynic in me thinks that the 2A gets more press because it's easy to find commercial and foreign government support for their organizations. 4A proponents don't have much if anything to sell.
- icelancer 4y ago
  2A zealots tend to be very protective of their property being unlawfully searched or seized. The whole Sovereign Citizen movement is emblematic of the extremes in this regard, but it's absolutely true overall. As someone else said, though, the 4A doesn't really give companies and people much to sell to one another in that section of society. They would seriously benefit from password safety products, better choice of hardware, and full-disk encryption, but this group doesn't tend to have a lot of electronics technical chops. I say this as someone who recreationally shoots long arms and works in a tech/science field. The Venn diagram hardly overlaps. Which is a shame for both sides, I think.

mywittyname 4y ago

There's a financial component to the 2A (and 1A) that doesn't really exist for the 4A. So the 4A will never have the same level of financial support as the other two.

dylan604 4y ago
Is that always going to be true though. As data becomes more valuable, being able to search&seize that data from anywhere anytime sure seems suspect to me.
- mrWiz 4y ago
  Firearm manufacturers have a financial motivation to promote 2A rights. Who would have a financial motivation for 4A?
  - dylan604 4y ago
    Don't they also have incentive to protect the 4th as well so that when "they" come to take those arms that they keep shouting "they" are doing, that a strong 4th would prevent them from search&seizing?
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      I think their view tends to be that the 2nd amendment alone prevents that. I rarely hear them talk about the 4th. However, I am 100% certain that if they stop viewing the 2nd as being so protective, they would become very vocal about the 4th instead.

AdrianB1 4y ago

I had the impression that the kind of people that go for 2nd also go for 1st, 4th and all rights in general, but because I am living on a different continent my impression may be wrong.

JohnFen 4y ago
My experience is that the 2nd amendment people are really laser-focused on the second amendment and don't care so much about the other ones. The only time I've heard them express an interest in the other amendments is when they intersect with the second.