5 ms·

Yes we should be sharing anecdotes. The charts going down to the right and the maps showing territory shrinking are both important. That’s why they’re posted h

Yes we should be sharing anecdotes. The charts going down to the right and the maps showing territory shrinking are both important. That’s why they’re posted here frequently. It’s also important to remember what those charts and maps mean, which is future generations having magic and beauty and wonder stolen from them. The destruction of the environment is heartbreaking on its own, but the destruction of the human experience is a whole additional layer of tragedy.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
We have also added to the human experience. We are able to fly above the clouds at hundreds of miles an hour, an experienced that throughout human history was in the realm of legends and stories about gods. I can also talk and video conference with relatives living thousands of miles away.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  What an experience that is! Crammed between people and hardly being able to move for hours while significantly contributing to CO2 and noise pollution just so you can sit indoors in a remote place for work or at a beach for fun which you could've just done localy for pretty much the same experience
  - irrational 4y ago
    You think most people have nice warm beaches locally?
  - pb7 4y ago
    >Crammed between people and hardly being able to move for hours Do you know why it's so cramped? To maximize the number of people on the flight and therefore reduce the per-passenger carbon emissions and cost. I can tell you've never traveled if you think every place is like every other. The creek in your podunk town is not the same as the beaches in French Polynesia.
    - b112 4y ago
      To maximize the number of people on the flight and therefore reduce the per-passenger carbon emissions and cost. You must be joking. It is solely and completely for profit. Airlines could care less about emissions.
      - pb7 4y ago
        It is about cost to airlines but to call out the cramped conditions in the same breath as carbon emissions when the cramped conditions reduce overall carbon emissions immediately gave away that the OP doesn’t give one shit about climate change when it comes to their personal comfort. Dialing in on how it benefits the airlines when low prices also benefit flyers and lower per-passenger emissions benefit everyone shows you just have a bone to pick.
        b112 4y ago
        Of course I have a bone to pick. It is too cramped! Having my knees mashed into the seat in front of me, my back aching, for a 9 hour flight is absurd, and should be illegal. Many, many flyer hate this. It absolutely does not benefit flyers, not when you see seat price static, or going up, and airline profits up (prior covid). It. does. not. help. consumers. Airlines care not about emissions. You claimed it was done to reduce emissions. This is completely false. No hand wavy logic will change this.
        goatlover 4y ago
        Would you rather take the slower form of travel? If it's a nine hour flight, that could be over the ocean, so days instead of hours to get there.
        b112 4y ago
        I am not against air travel. I am against people claiming that the reason I am cramped, is to help the environment. Or customers. It's not. It is to help airline profits.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  Cool, go ahead and share those anecdotes too. I have a strong suspicion if our descendants learn that we traded butterflies for 9 hour plane flights for business meetings that are completely feasible over the Internet, they'll think very poorly of us.
  - pb7 4y ago
    I can confidently say the majority of fliers are not traveling for work. This is a strawman.
    - ethanbond 4y ago
      Where did I say it was? My position is that every day people make tradeoffs without even considering what those tradeoffs are, because the benefits are so immediate and local while the costs are externalized both in time and space. It's important to connect everyday decisions (and their real benefits) to their externalized costs (which are also real, and probably ~impossible to recover once incurred). Once our cohabitants are gone, they're likely gone forever. We have no reason to believe we'll ever be able to recover a meaningful portion of them. Ecosystems are astoundingly complex and the more we learn about them, the more we learn how subtle they are.
      - pb7 4y ago
        I get it, you were saying it for effect, but this statement: >if our descendants learn that we traded butterflies for 9 hour plane flights for business meetings Makes it seem like that's all flights are good for. It's not any different than if you said "quinceaneras" instead of "business meetings". They are probably a non-zero percentage of why people fly but even without these things, there would still be demand for air travel and the problem would remain. I share your doom and gloom about the situation but hope we can focus on changes that have material return. There are many optional things in life that we can cut out but then what would be the point in living?
        ethanbond 4y ago
nsxwolf 4y ago
Here's my Chicago suburbs anecdote: Tons of mosquitos, more fireflies than 5 years ago (but not even close to how many there were 30 years ago), not very many butterflies. A few ladybugs but they're always orange or yellow now, never red.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

We have also added to the human experience. We are able to fly above the clouds at hundreds of miles an hour, an experienced that throughout human history was in the realm of legends and stories about gods. I can also talk and video conference with relatives living thousands of miles away.

411111111111111 4y ago
What an experience that is! Crammed between people and hardly being able to move for hours while significantly contributing to CO2 and noise pollution just so you can sit indoors in a remote place for work or at a beach for fun which you could've just done localy for pretty much the same experience
- irrational 4y ago
  You think most people have nice warm beaches locally?
- pb7 4y ago
  >Crammed between people and hardly being able to move for hours Do you know why it's so cramped? To maximize the number of people on the flight and therefore reduce the per-passenger carbon emissions and cost. I can tell you've never traveled if you think every place is like every other. The creek in your podunk town is not the same as the beaches in French Polynesia.
  - b112 4y ago
    To maximize the number of people on the flight and therefore reduce the per-passenger carbon emissions and cost. You must be joking. It is solely and completely for profit. Airlines could care less about emissions.
    - pb7 4y ago
      It is about cost to airlines but to call out the cramped conditions in the same breath as carbon emissions when the cramped conditions reduce overall carbon emissions immediately gave away that the OP doesn’t give one shit about climate change when it comes to their personal comfort. Dialing in on how it benefits the airlines when low prices also benefit flyers and lower per-passenger emissions benefit everyone shows you just have a bone to pick.
      - b112 4y ago
        Of course I have a bone to pick. It is too cramped! Having my knees mashed into the seat in front of me, my back aching, for a 9 hour flight is absurd, and should be illegal. Many, many flyer hate this. It absolutely does not benefit flyers, not when you see seat price static, or going up, and airline profits up (prior covid). It. does. not. help. consumers. Airlines care not about emissions. You claimed it was done to reduce emissions. This is completely false. No hand wavy logic will change this.
        goatlover 4y ago
        Would you rather take the slower form of travel? If it's a nine hour flight, that could be over the ocean, so days instead of hours to get there.
        b112 4y ago
        I am not against air travel. I am against people claiming that the reason I am cramped, is to help the environment. Or customers. It's not. It is to help airline profits.
ethanbond 4y ago
Cool, go ahead and share those anecdotes too. I have a strong suspicion if our descendants learn that we traded butterflies for 9 hour plane flights for business meetings that are completely feasible over the Internet, they'll think very poorly of us.
- pb7 4y ago
  I can confidently say the majority of fliers are not traveling for work. This is a strawman.
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    Where did I say it was? My position is that every day people make tradeoffs without even considering what those tradeoffs are, because the benefits are so immediate and local while the costs are externalized both in time and space. It's important to connect everyday decisions (and their real benefits) to their externalized costs (which are also real, and probably ~impossible to recover once incurred). Once our cohabitants are gone, they're likely gone forever. We have no reason to believe we'll ever be able to recover a meaningful portion of them. Ecosystems are astoundingly complex and the more we learn about them, the more we learn how subtle they are.
    - pb7 4y ago
      I get it, you were saying it for effect, but this statement: >if our descendants learn that we traded butterflies for 9 hour plane flights for business meetings Makes it seem like that's all flights are good for. It's not any different than if you said "quinceaneras" instead of "business meetings". They are probably a non-zero percentage of why people fly but even without these things, there would still be demand for air travel and the problem would remain. I share your doom and gloom about the situation but hope we can focus on changes that have material return. There are many optional things in life that we can cut out but then what would be the point in living?
      - ethanbond 4y ago

nsxwolf 4y ago

Here's my Chicago suburbs anecdote: Tons of mosquitos, more fireflies than 5 years ago (but not even close to how many there were 30 years ago), not very many butterflies. A few ladybugs but they're always orange or yellow now, never red.