4 ms·

Absolutely do not like the precedent this sets. If anything, apple should remove it from the App Store, and I will get mad at apple and think it’s an overreach

Absolutely do not like the precedent this sets. If anything, apple should remove it from the App Store, and I will get mad at apple and think it’s an overreach. The government making noise that they should be able to ban apps from our phones is a step too far.

ouid 4y ago
preventing the mass exfiltration of american data seems like something that the government has absolute authority over. If Tiktok cannot prove that they are not doing that, then this is no different from the health department shutting down a restaurant.
- bitexploder 4y ago
  Seems like it would violate the first amendment. Government can’t really restrict my speech.
  - verdverm 4y ago
    The government regulates imports and exports, this is not a free speech issue
  - ouid 4y ago
    If the chinese government asks you to spy on your neighbors, I would hope your "right to do so" is not protected by the first amendment.
    - dvngnt_ 4y ago
      spying on the behalf of another country is already regulated
      - ouid 4y ago
        Yes, but the point is to convince the parent comment that it should not be protected speech.
    - bitexploder 4y ago
      Is that is what is happening with TikTok? Me spying on my neighbors? I don’t even use TikTok and have never set up an account, but it seems like it is overreach without firmly and publicly stating and proving the national security threat. Until then, it’s a free speech issue in my book.
- somenameforme 4y ago
  This is nothing like a restaurant being shut down. In normal enforcement, parties are innocent until proven guilty. An inspector comes, sees where you are violating rules and regulations, and gives you an overall assessment. In this case TikTok's guilt is being assumed based on zero evidence, and they're being asked to prove a negative. Prove you don't have a little invisible gremlin, made of dark matter, named Kabuzu floating just above your right shoulder. And now prove it to people that are dead-set in the belief that you do, regardless of what you say. This is why the presumption of innocence is such an important part of any rational system of justice.
  - ouid 4y ago
    There is no presumption of innocence because it is not a person being charged with a crime. It is a corporation. More than that, it is a corporation that cannot be audited because it lives in a state hostile to US interests. As a person, you do not need to prove your right to exist, but an entity that only exists at the whim of the democratic government in which it operates most definitely does.
- epolanski 4y ago
  And yet it seems US government is black belt at violating other's data. And many US apps/websites are non-GDPR compliant.
verdverm 4y ago
Was it not China that set the precedent by effectively banning many Western apps?
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  The United States is better than China.
- jpgvm 4y ago
  China doesn't ban apps, even US made ones. Instead they mandate that apps that operate in China must follow Chinese regulations, privacy laws and of course provide access to Chinese agencies as requested. Many American companies have decided they aren't interested in operating in the Chinese market if they have to do so under these rules. That is completely their choice and completely reasonable if you have moral issues with how the Chinese government operates their market. Meanwhile many American companies like Microsoft for instance are happy to comply with said regulations in order to gain access to the market. I don't think the regulations the Chinese impose are protectionist (like what the US is talking about doing) but they definitely are morally queasy for some, especially the censorship and government access rules. So the whole "American companies are banned in China" is mostly nonsense AFAICT.
  - winddude 4y ago
    > Instead they mandate that apps that operate in China must follow Chinese regulations, privacy laws and of course provide access to Chinese agencies as requested. And how do they do that? With the threat of banning / not allowing them to operate.
    - jpgvm 4y ago
      The laws are stated. If you publish an app the the App Store that violates US law you can be sure it's taken down pronto as well. TikTok isn't violating US laws, they just want it removed for "national security reasons". The US has plenty of better options to deal with this like applying broad data privacy legislation such as what EU and China have enacted, creation of a regulator to enforce this and inspect entities to ensure they are playing by the rules etc.

ouid 4y ago

preventing the mass exfiltration of american data seems like something that the government has absolute authority over. If Tiktok cannot prove that they are not doing that, then this is no different from the health department shutting down a restaurant.

bitexploder 4y ago
Seems like it would violate the first amendment. Government can’t really restrict my speech.
- verdverm 4y ago
  The government regulates imports and exports, this is not a free speech issue
- ouid 4y ago
  If the chinese government asks you to spy on your neighbors, I would hope your "right to do so" is not protected by the first amendment.
  - dvngnt_ 4y ago
    spying on the behalf of another country is already regulated
    - ouid 4y ago
      Yes, but the point is to convince the parent comment that it should not be protected speech.
  - bitexploder 4y ago
    Is that is what is happening with TikTok? Me spying on my neighbors? I don’t even use TikTok and have never set up an account, but it seems like it is overreach without firmly and publicly stating and proving the national security threat. Until then, it’s a free speech issue in my book.
somenameforme 4y ago
This is nothing like a restaurant being shut down. In normal enforcement, parties are innocent until proven guilty. An inspector comes, sees where you are violating rules and regulations, and gives you an overall assessment. In this case TikTok's guilt is being assumed based on zero evidence, and they're being asked to prove a negative. Prove you don't have a little invisible gremlin, made of dark matter, named Kabuzu floating just above your right shoulder. And now prove it to people that are dead-set in the belief that you do, regardless of what you say. This is why the presumption of innocence is such an important part of any rational system of justice.
- ouid 4y ago
  There is no presumption of innocence because it is not a person being charged with a crime. It is a corporation. More than that, it is a corporation that cannot be audited because it lives in a state hostile to US interests. As a person, you do not need to prove your right to exist, but an entity that only exists at the whim of the democratic government in which it operates most definitely does.
epolanski 4y ago
And yet it seems US government is black belt at violating other's data. And many US apps/websites are non-GDPR compliant.

verdverm 4y ago

Was it not China that set the precedent by effectively banning many Western apps?

thepasswordis 4y ago
The United States is better than China.
jpgvm 4y ago
China doesn't ban apps, even US made ones. Instead they mandate that apps that operate in China must follow Chinese regulations, privacy laws and of course provide access to Chinese agencies as requested. Many American companies have decided they aren't interested in operating in the Chinese market if they have to do so under these rules. That is completely their choice and completely reasonable if you have moral issues with how the Chinese government operates their market. Meanwhile many American companies like Microsoft for instance are happy to comply with said regulations in order to gain access to the market. I don't think the regulations the Chinese impose are protectionist (like what the US is talking about doing) but they definitely are morally queasy for some, especially the censorship and government access rules. So the whole "American companies are banned in China" is mostly nonsense AFAICT.
- winddude 4y ago
  > Instead they mandate that apps that operate in China must follow Chinese regulations, privacy laws and of course provide access to Chinese agencies as requested. And how do they do that? With the threat of banning / not allowing them to operate.
  - jpgvm 4y ago
    The laws are stated. If you publish an app the the App Store that violates US law you can be sure it's taken down pronto as well. TikTok isn't violating US laws, they just want it removed for "national security reasons". The US has plenty of better options to deal with this like applying broad data privacy legislation such as what EU and China have enacted, creation of a regulator to enforce this and inspect entities to ensure they are playing by the rules etc.