4 ms·

Successful mass immigration will allow them to persist in the systems that are causing those falling birthrates, ensuring their people dwindle towards nothing.

Successful mass immigration will allow them to persist in the systems that are causing those falling birthrates, ensuring their people dwindle towards nothing. Stopping immigration would force them to change to something sustainable.

shkkmo 4y ago
> persist in the systems that are causing those falling birthrates Care to specify which systems are causing the falling birthrates?
- nhchris 4y ago
  "Systems" as in those countries' social and economical systems. I don't know exactly what about those systems kills birthrates, but they are doubtless to blame, as other countries, and even those same countries some time in the past, had higher birthrates. Those systems caused that change.
  - nobody9999 4y ago
    >"Systems" as in those countries' social and economical systems. I don't know exactly what about those systems kills birthrates, but they are doubtless to blame, as other countries, and even those same countries some time in the past, had higher birthrates. Those systems caused that change. I'd say that falling birthrates have much more to do with modern medicine (antibiotics and effective contraception anyone?) and better sanitation systems, as well as industrialization, than with government policies (China's failed "one child" policy notwithstanding). If you're a farmer, more kids means more (relatively free) help on the farm. When almost half[0] of the children born died before the age of five, more kids were conceived, since many wouldn't survive to adulthood. That's not government policy, that's technology. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-al...
    - nhchris 4y ago
      Whether it's policy, technology, or medicine (I don't quite understand why medicine would reduce the metric we care about, number of surviving children) doesn't matter. There may be a solution a nation could take, but immigration enables it (or rather, its economy) to persist, without addressing the falling birth rates, at the price of slowly giving way to a new, immigrant population.
      - nobody9999 4y ago
        >at the price of slowly giving way to a new, immigrant population. What's wrong with immigrants? My father was an immigrant. My mother's parents were immigrants. Babies are "immigrants" from someone's womb. I'd note that all humans are immigrants to every place except Africa. Further, I'd ask why you care where the person (or their parents) who installs the side view mirror on your car at the factory comes from? What practical difference does that make in your life? Well, except for being able to get decent Pho[0], quality bagels[1], pizza[2], pasta[3] and all manner of other stuff that immigrants brought/bring to this country. Making our culture richer and more interesting. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pho https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pho [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta#History
        nhchris 4y ago
        There's nothing wrong with immigrants. What's wrong is the old population will disappear, or be put in the perilous position of being a minority in the only territory they can call their own. Look at Ukraine while it was part of the Soviet union for how dangerous that can be - or the Rohingya, or Uyghurs, or countless other examples. Not to mention it is in the interest of any organism, any living being, to produce descendants, so any policy that promises long-term sub-replacement fertility is dangerous from that point of view alone. It frankly boggles the mind this is something I have to explain.
        4y ago
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shkkmo 4y ago

> persist in the systems that are causing those falling birthrates Care to specify which systems are causing the falling birthrates?

nhchris 4y ago
"Systems" as in those countries' social and economical systems. I don't know exactly what about those systems kills birthrates, but they are doubtless to blame, as other countries, and even those same countries some time in the past, had higher birthrates. Those systems caused that change.
- nobody9999 4y ago
  >"Systems" as in those countries' social and economical systems. I don't know exactly what about those systems kills birthrates, but they are doubtless to blame, as other countries, and even those same countries some time in the past, had higher birthrates. Those systems caused that change. I'd say that falling birthrates have much more to do with modern medicine (antibiotics and effective contraception anyone?) and better sanitation systems, as well as industrialization, than with government policies (China's failed "one child" policy notwithstanding). If you're a farmer, more kids means more (relatively free) help on the farm. When almost half[0] of the children born died before the age of five, more kids were conceived, since many wouldn't survive to adulthood. That's not government policy, that's technology. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-al...
  - nhchris 4y ago
    Whether it's policy, technology, or medicine (I don't quite understand why medicine would reduce the metric we care about, number of surviving children) doesn't matter. There may be a solution a nation could take, but immigration enables it (or rather, its economy) to persist, without addressing the falling birth rates, at the price of slowly giving way to a new, immigrant population.
    - nobody9999 4y ago
      >at the price of slowly giving way to a new, immigrant population. What's wrong with immigrants? My father was an immigrant. My mother's parents were immigrants. Babies are "immigrants" from someone's womb. I'd note that all humans are immigrants to every place except Africa. Further, I'd ask why you care where the person (or their parents) who installs the side view mirror on your car at the factory comes from? What practical difference does that make in your life? Well, except for being able to get decent Pho[0], quality bagels[1], pizza[2], pasta[3] and all manner of other stuff that immigrants brought/bring to this country. Making our culture richer and more interesting. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pho https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pho [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagel [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta#History
      - nhchris 4y ago
        There's nothing wrong with immigrants. What's wrong is the old population will disappear, or be put in the perilous position of being a minority in the only territory they can call their own. Look at Ukraine while it was part of the Soviet union for how dangerous that can be - or the Rohingya, or Uyghurs, or countless other examples. Not to mention it is in the interest of any organism, any living being, to produce descendants, so any policy that promises long-term sub-replacement fertility is dangerous from that point of view alone. It frankly boggles the mind this is something I have to explain.
        4y ago

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