4 ms·

Saw six butterflies last night while walking in a highly developed area. I’ll probably see six more tonight. Are anecdotes really how we want to measure this?

BitwiseFool 4y ago
>"Are anecdotes really how we want to measure this?" Anecdotes aren't always bad, or even inappropriate. We're on an internet forum having a casual discussion so my expectations for intellectual rigor are quite low.
snowwrestler 4y ago
No, anecdotes are unreliable. It would be better to do a systematic study, and publish the results in a scientific journal like Current Biology. Then maybe to help get the word out, publish a summary on a website like Science.
- jxramos 4y ago
  I wonder if some DIY computer vision video set on such a planter box of native flowers could be some indication if sufficiently crowdsourced.
  - Shatnerz 4y ago
    I don't see why not? Citizen science has been pretty important to fields like ornithology. I'd actually be surprised if something like this wasn't already happening somewhere at small scale at least. edit: There is even a "Butterfly Count" section on the wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_science
  - snowwrestler 4y ago
    Sounds like an interesting idea!
- kilgnad 4y ago
  Anecdotes have a degree of unreliability and a degree of reliability. Outright dismissing an anecdote as completely baseless and invalid is highly, highly unwise and a sign that the person is not logical. First off, anecdotes have extreme speed. You can get some sort of answer much faster and at a hugely lower cost then a "study". Second, studies are not to be trusted either. There's huge incentive to doctor these things and with the replication crisis this "doctoring" has been shown to be common place. Third, even an "honest" study can be wildly off depending on the data gathered and most of the time these studies only find correlative associations rather then causative (most people don't even know how to conduct a causative experiment). A good example of this is smoking Cannabis and Tobacco. Depending on the time both were deemed healthy to consume by research via multitudes of biased research and and a lack of unbiased studies. But with a little anecdotal common sense it's easy to see that breathing burnt plants into your lungs is likely just bad overall.
CalRobert 4y ago
But that's an anecdote....
ethanbond 4y ago
Yes we should be sharing anecdotes. The charts going down to the right and the maps showing territory shrinking are both important. That’s why they’re posted here frequently. It’s also important to remember what those charts and maps mean, which is future generations having magic and beauty and wonder stolen from them. The destruction of the environment is heartbreaking on its own, but the destruction of the human experience is a whole additional layer of tragedy.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  We have also added to the human experience. We are able to fly above the clouds at hundreds of miles an hour, an experienced that throughout human history was in the realm of legends and stories about gods. I can also talk and video conference with relatives living thousands of miles away.
  - 411111111111111 4y ago
    What an experience that is! Crammed between people and hardly being able to move for hours while significantly contributing to CO2 and noise pollution just so you can sit indoors in a remote place for work or at a beach for fun which you could've just done localy for pretty much the same experience
    - irrational 4y ago
      You think most people have nice warm beaches locally?
    - pb7 4y ago
      >Crammed between people and hardly being able to move for hours Do you know why it's so cramped? To maximize the number of people on the flight and therefore reduce the per-passenger carbon emissions and cost. I can tell you've never traveled if you think every place is like every other. The creek in your podunk town is not the same as the beaches in French Polynesia.
      - 4y ago
Natsu 4y ago
Lucky. I haven't been seeing anything for a long time and due to old habits from studying entomology, I habitually identify any butterfly I see. I can tell a Monarch from a Viceroy at a distance just because the latter flies differently. I haven't seen either one since early covid, when they were suddenly more common for whatever reason.

BitwiseFool 4y ago

>"Are anecdotes really how we want to measure this?" Anecdotes aren't always bad, or even inappropriate. We're on an internet forum having a casual discussion so my expectations for intellectual rigor are quite low.

snowwrestler 4y ago

No, anecdotes are unreliable. It would be better to do a systematic study, and publish the results in a scientific journal like Current Biology. Then maybe to help get the word out, publish a summary on a website like Science.

jxramos 4y ago
I wonder if some DIY computer vision video set on such a planter box of native flowers could be some indication if sufficiently crowdsourced.
- Shatnerz 4y ago
  I don't see why not? Citizen science has been pretty important to fields like ornithology. I'd actually be surprised if something like this wasn't already happening somewhere at small scale at least. edit: There is even a "Butterfly Count" section on the wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_science
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  Sounds like an interesting idea!
kilgnad 4y ago
Anecdotes have a degree of unreliability and a degree of reliability. Outright dismissing an anecdote as completely baseless and invalid is highly, highly unwise and a sign that the person is not logical. First off, anecdotes have extreme speed. You can get some sort of answer much faster and at a hugely lower cost then a "study". Second, studies are not to be trusted either. There's huge incentive to doctor these things and with the replication crisis this "doctoring" has been shown to be common place. Third, even an "honest" study can be wildly off depending on the data gathered and most of the time these studies only find correlative associations rather then causative (most people don't even know how to conduct a causative experiment). A good example of this is smoking Cannabis and Tobacco. Depending on the time both were deemed healthy to consume by research via multitudes of biased research and and a lack of unbiased studies. But with a little anecdotal common sense it's easy to see that breathing burnt plants into your lungs is likely just bad overall.

CalRobert 4y ago

But that's an anecdote....

ethanbond 4y ago

Yes we should be sharing anecdotes. The charts going down to the right and the maps showing territory shrinking are both important. That’s why they’re posted here frequently. It’s also important to remember what those charts and maps mean, which is future generations having magic and beauty and wonder stolen from them. The destruction of the environment is heartbreaking on its own, but the destruction of the human experience is a whole additional layer of tragedy.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
We have also added to the human experience. We are able to fly above the clouds at hundreds of miles an hour, an experienced that throughout human history was in the realm of legends and stories about gods. I can also talk and video conference with relatives living thousands of miles away.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  What an experience that is! Crammed between people and hardly being able to move for hours while significantly contributing to CO2 and noise pollution just so you can sit indoors in a remote place for work or at a beach for fun which you could've just done localy for pretty much the same experience
  - irrational 4y ago
    You think most people have nice warm beaches locally?
  - pb7 4y ago
    >Crammed between people and hardly being able to move for hours Do you know why it's so cramped? To maximize the number of people on the flight and therefore reduce the per-passenger carbon emissions and cost. I can tell you've never traveled if you think every place is like every other. The creek in your podunk town is not the same as the beaches in French Polynesia.
    - 4y ago

Natsu 4y ago

Lucky. I haven't been seeing anything for a long time and due to old habits from studying entomology, I habitually identify any butterfly I see. I can tell a Monarch from a Viceroy at a distance just because the latter flies differently. I haven't seen either one since early covid, when they were suddenly more common for whatever reason.