6 ms·

why would they send citizens? NATO has 3.3mil army vs 800k of Russia

medo-bear 4y ago
i think terms like troops, army, etc. have potential to be 'newspeak'. in every case we are talking about citizens. and whats most worrying if things get really hot ... reservists then conscription. just ask russians and ukranians ... or vietnam vets. personally im very worried about the prospect of world war but media seems to be fueling this hero brave pro-war attitude and people seem to be buying it! putin must be punished for his crimes, but do not pretend that us and nato are any better
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  > media seems to be fueling this hero brave pro-war attitude I don't think any serious media is pro-war, it's more like we have two choices: (1) either send weapons, or (2) watch Ukrainians die and become slaves of Putin. This is a tough moral choice because either involves killing, but we don't have the luxury of having more choices. If we don't do anything, Ukrainians will suffer. If we ask Urkainians to surrender, they won't even listen because they know how cruel their fate will be.
- andrejguran 4y ago
  ofc you can call army troops citizens as well. But then going back to your question if they're prepared for it, well I hope so because that's the army's job to be prepared. But I don't think you original question whether citizens are prepared was aiming only at "army citizens" but regular citizens. And for this I don't see why would regular citizens be conscripted. Currently Ukraine is able to hold russia with limited resources from the west. We have actually the opposite problem if NATO would have a full scale war with russia NATO would win too fast which is problem because it would be an existential crisis for russia and they'd have to use nuclear weapons. So no, regular citizens of NATO countries will very unlikely be conscripted for war with russia as NATO is slowly winning without a single soldier in battle.
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    so you do think that time will come for professional nato soldiers to come to ukraine to fight russia ?
    - andrejguran 4y ago
      no I don't. And I was trying to explain why I don't think so as it would escalate the conflict possibly to a nuclear one as NATO entering Ukraine would cause russia to lose very quickly
      - medo-bear 4y ago
        see the problem i have with this is the constant pushing of boundaries. first it was small defensive weapons. then small offensive weapons. then large defensive weapons. then large offensive weapons. now its fighter jets. whats next? at the same time a narative is being developed in all the major media that the freedom of europe and west depends on ukranian victory. if thats the case, whats the next logical conclusion if ukraine actually begins to lose the war? to me this smells of preparation of the general population for a (much) larger war
        haspok 4y ago
        Constant pushing of boundaries is exactly what the Russians do: first they annex Crimea (no or very limited response from the West), then they separate Donbas (no response from the West), then they finally attack Ukraine proper. Should the West have watched this with arms folded in your opinion? We are very far from average Joe being sent to the Russian front. Partly because there is a professional army that will be involved before that, but more likely it will not, in order to avoid nuclear conflict. I think you should worry more about that than the general population being sent to Ukraine.
        andrejguran 4y ago
        I disagree because russia showed it's very weak militarily. So weak that it caught by surprise everyone. Again we have the opposite problem and that's for Ukraine not winning too fast and that's why NATO is suppling weapons very carefully and slowly. You said that we're pushing boundaries but I see it as pushing boundaries centimeter by centimeter while being miles away from what you call a larger war. So in conclusion there won't be much larger war simply because there is no larger enemy.
- haspok 4y ago
  You should study pre-WW2 history, what happened when Hitler anschlussed Austria, Czechia, then invaded Poland and then turned west. Meanwhile the allied powers tried to close their eyes and were thinking that if they leave Hitler be there will be peace. It cost the world 6 years and a few million dead people to prove this idea wrong. And if you think that the western world is not any better than Putin, well, I wish you a very happy life somewhere in Russia...
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - haspok 4y ago
      > you would send me to russia for having a different opinion? No, you totally misread that. I did not want to send you anywhere. I just wish people put their money where their mouth is. If you are living in a developed country it's easy to romanticize a communist dictatorship (or not communist anymore - who cares), where writing your opinion in a public forum would actually get you in real trouble (as in prison, or worse), as opposed to another forum user writing a critical response to your message. > if you study history of rise of fascism it all began with supression of differeing opinions Am I suppresssing you now? Or to take one step further, are you calling me a nazi, just because I don't agree with you and I dare to reply? Wow. > first they came for the jews, but i was not jewish. then they came for the communists, but i was not a communist ... then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me And what does this quote have to do with anything in this thread?
      - medo-bear 4y ago
        my money is litteraly where my mouth is. where i also pay my taxes. you on the other hand told me my place is in russia. no its not. its in my homeland which i love. and no i dont see a contradiction between pointing out the hypocricy of my government and wanting to live where i live. on the contrary i voice my opinions because i belive that the people who live where i live deserve better. and i do for the reccord believe that the involvement of my government in the wars led by the US for the past three decades were a crime. it is because of these crimes that we have fed the likes of people like putin to become popular

i think terms like troops, army, etc. have potential to be 'newspeak'. in every case we are talking about citizens. and whats most worrying if things get really hot ... reservists then conscription. just ask russians and ukranians ... or vietnam vets. personally im very worried about the prospect of world war but media seems to be fueling this hero brave pro-war attitude and people seem to be buying it! putin must be punished for his crimes, but do not pretend that us and nato are any better

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
> media seems to be fueling this hero brave pro-war attitude I don't think any serious media is pro-war, it's more like we have two choices: (1) either send weapons, or (2) watch Ukrainians die and become slaves of Putin. This is a tough moral choice because either involves killing, but we don't have the luxury of having more choices. If we don't do anything, Ukrainians will suffer. If we ask Urkainians to surrender, they won't even listen because they know how cruel their fate will be.
andrejguran 4y ago
ofc you can call army troops citizens as well. But then going back to your question if they're prepared for it, well I hope so because that's the army's job to be prepared. But I don't think you original question whether citizens are prepared was aiming only at "army citizens" but regular citizens. And for this I don't see why would regular citizens be conscripted. Currently Ukraine is able to hold russia with limited resources from the west. We have actually the opposite problem if NATO would have a full scale war with russia NATO would win too fast which is problem because it would be an existential crisis for russia and they'd have to use nuclear weapons. So no, regular citizens of NATO countries will very unlikely be conscripted for war with russia as NATO is slowly winning without a single soldier in battle.
- medo-bear 4y ago
  so you do think that time will come for professional nato soldiers to come to ukraine to fight russia ?
  - andrejguran 4y ago
    no I don't. And I was trying to explain why I don't think so as it would escalate the conflict possibly to a nuclear one as NATO entering Ukraine would cause russia to lose very quickly
    - medo-bear 4y ago
      see the problem i have with this is the constant pushing of boundaries. first it was small defensive weapons. then small offensive weapons. then large defensive weapons. then large offensive weapons. now its fighter jets. whats next? at the same time a narative is being developed in all the major media that the freedom of europe and west depends on ukranian victory. if thats the case, whats the next logical conclusion if ukraine actually begins to lose the war? to me this smells of preparation of the general population for a (much) larger war
      - haspok 4y ago
        Constant pushing of boundaries is exactly what the Russians do: first they annex Crimea (no or very limited response from the West), then they separate Donbas (no response from the West), then they finally attack Ukraine proper. Should the West have watched this with arms folded in your opinion? We are very far from average Joe being sent to the Russian front. Partly because there is a professional army that will be involved before that, but more likely it will not, in order to avoid nuclear conflict. I think you should worry more about that than the general population being sent to Ukraine.
      - andrejguran 4y ago
        I disagree because russia showed it's very weak militarily. So weak that it caught by surprise everyone. Again we have the opposite problem and that's for Ukraine not winning too fast and that's why NATO is suppling weapons very carefully and slowly. You said that we're pushing boundaries but I see it as pushing boundaries centimeter by centimeter while being miles away from what you call a larger war. So in conclusion there won't be much larger war simply because there is no larger enemy.
haspok 4y ago
You should study pre-WW2 history, what happened when Hitler anschlussed Austria, Czechia, then invaded Poland and then turned west. Meanwhile the allied powers tried to close their eyes and were thinking that if they leave Hitler be there will be peace. It cost the world 6 years and a few million dead people to prove this idea wrong. And if you think that the western world is not any better than Putin, well, I wish you a very happy life somewhere in Russia...
- medo-bear 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - haspok 4y ago
    > you would send me to russia for having a different opinion? No, you totally misread that. I did not want to send you anywhere. I just wish people put their money where their mouth is. If you are living in a developed country it's easy to romanticize a communist dictatorship (or not communist anymore - who cares), where writing your opinion in a public forum would actually get you in real trouble (as in prison, or worse), as opposed to another forum user writing a critical response to your message. > if you study history of rise of fascism it all began with supression of differeing opinions Am I suppresssing you now? Or to take one step further, are you calling me a nazi, just because I don't agree with you and I dare to reply? Wow. > first they came for the jews, but i was not jewish. then they came for the communists, but i was not a communist ... then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me And what does this quote have to do with anything in this thread?
    - medo-bear 4y ago
      my money is litteraly where my mouth is. where i also pay my taxes. you on the other hand told me my place is in russia. no its not. its in my homeland which i love. and no i dont see a contradiction between pointing out the hypocricy of my government and wanting to live where i live. on the contrary i voice my opinions because i belive that the people who live where i live deserve better. and i do for the reccord believe that the involvement of my government in the wars led by the US for the past three decades were a crime. it is because of these crimes that we have fed the likes of people like putin to become popular