5 ms·

Internet Archive gets DMCA exemption to help archive vintage software (2003)

423 points by pabs3 4y ago

oidar 4y ago
I wonder if older iPhone software counts now as archive targets?
- simondotau 4y ago
  For what it’s worth, Apple themselves characterise the earliest iOS hardware as “obsolete”. https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT201624 https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT201624
  - iguessthislldo 4y ago
    Interesting that the Apple I and II are listed under "Mac desktops".
boomboomsubban 4y ago
The headline makes it sound like IA gets a special exemption, but they don't. They got a DMCA anti-circumvention exemption passed allowing anyone to bypass DRM on formats that use obsolete hardware. I regularly see people say IA can avoid DMCA strikes through a special exemption, but that is not the case. The rights holder could demand anything they archive be taken down, even these floppy disc games they secured an exemption for. It's great they got this passed, but it's not some major thing for them.
- pabs3 4y ago
  As a "library", IA also gets Section 108 copyright exemptions: https://copyrightalliance.org/education/copyright-law-explained/limitations-on-a-copyright-owners-rights/copyright-exceptions-libraries-archives/ https://copyrightalliance.org/education/copyright-law-explai... The rules are being updated for the digital age though: https://www.copyright.gov/policy/section108/ https://www.copyright.gov/policy/section108/
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Nothing has actually happened yet though aside from lots of meetings. As the latter link explicitly says, the library/archive exception provides very little in the way of specific additional rights to digital archives.
- danlugo92 4y ago
  So the solution is as easy as modifying a law here and there and we could enable the archival humanity's progress?
- capableweb 4y ago
  One thing IA has going for them at least is that even though some material they have cannot be online and viewable by anyone, you can physically access their location and get access to any and all of the content, DMCA strikes be damned or not. Thanks to their library status if I'm not mistaken.
  - MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago
    What if all lawyers were physicists too? We send electricity and light over wires and fibers to transfer the data using physics, thereby we are physically transferring the data.
    - karmakaze 4y ago
      Would matter replicators count?
    - capableweb 4y ago
      I think the argument is around accessibility and ability to copy it. If it's available from your home, everyone could easily access it and also easily copy it. If you have to go to a dedicated computer, at a physical location (California, US no less), basically only a small percentage of people actually have access to it, and are more or less unable to copy things at a grand scale.
schappim 4y ago
I've always been curious about how they manage to host all that software and provide emulation without anyone coming after them! This explains it!
dang 4y ago
Related: Internet Archive Gets DMCA Exemption To Help Archive Vintage Software (2003) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8848320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8848320 - Jan 2015 (8 comments)
moremetadata 4y ago
How does anyone trust software uploaded to the Internet Archive?
- Incipient 4y ago
  Any evidence to suggest we shouldn't?
  - Joel_Mckay 4y ago
    I also encountered some nastiness looking for 30 year old x86 drivers for a project. If you can't find the CD hash signature, than all bets are off. Not Archive.org fault either, as most issues were on the original CDs too. =)
    - moremetadata 4y ago
      > CD hash signature How do you know the CD Hash Sig is genuine though? I see this with hash values on websites next to ISO and other files. Its like a really blatant confidence trick when you can pull one of those off!
      - TeMPOraL 4y ago
        > How do you know the CD Hash Sig is genuine though? You don't, unless you trust the source of it, or supply your own. > I see this with hash values on websites next to ISO and other files. This doesn't solve the problem you have in mind - verifying the file is genuine; it solves the problem of verifying that what you got is what you expected, i.e. what the site promised. The hash is there so you can detect download errors (used to be a much more frequent thing than it is now). Secondarily, because the files usually sit on a different server than the site itself, the hash lets you detect some cases of your download being tampered with in-flight, or the file itself altered on the server. Not all of such cases, just those where the attacker could affect the download, but couldn't modify the website itself.
        4y ago
haunter 4y ago
I don’t know how does that work but they became the de facto console ROM site. You not just can upload games but you can download them too, it’s not simply archiving but sharing too. The full SEGA library. Full Nintendo library (except the newest Switch games). Every single PS1-PS2-PS3 games. All the Xbox and Xbox 360 games. I love it because used physical games are insanely expensive and some of the digital stores are also shutting down (WiiU/3DS this month). And on top of that easy to get out of region games that never released for example outside of Japan. Anyways I except one day the companies going after IA. Especially Nintendo, they shut down several ROM sites yet IA have 10x times more and better selection.
- mjevans 4y ago
  In a sane world this would be a moot point. 1) There should be a compulsory fee option offered by every copyright registration office for them to provide a license (and possibly reproduce a copy of the work). 2) Enforcement of availability to maintain copyright, without the availability of the work it should default, irrevocably, to public domain. 3) Reasonable coverage: At least in the US copyright is intended to promote the progress of science and 'useful arts' (skilled 'trades'/work). The scope should be extremely narrow, and maybe even eliminated since _publishing_ is now vastly cheaper than ever before. 4) Reasonable duration: Even ignoring the coverage aspect, the duration should reflect a useful lifetime of information and the evolution of ideas and culture. Today's world moves far faster than in ages past, and yet copyright's been abused as an extension of what should be _trade_ mark. 5) Trade Mark is the intended consumer protection mechanism. Brand names and likenesses associated with them are covered by Trade Mark. Use in a for profit context that represents that brand.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    > There should be a compulsory fee option offered by every copyright registration office for them to provide a license (and possibly reproduce a copy of the work). So should a AAA title that costs millions to produced be forced to license their game for the same amount as my tic tac toe game? > Reasonable coverage: At least in the US copyright is intended to promote the progress of science and 'useful arts' (skilled 'trades'/work). The scope should be extremely narrow, and maybe even eliminated since _publishing_ is now vastly cheaper than ever before. Publishing has been a relatively small part of the cost of media for awhile. It’s actually producing the content that’s expensive.
LocalH 4y ago
I've been saying for years that piracy is preservation. There are entire platform software libraries that would simply not exist nowadays without past piracy. If you care about the longevity of media, especially less popular media, then you'll pirate it. Anything less is failing to see the forest for the trees.

423 points by pabs3 4y ago

oidar 4y ago

I wonder if older iPhone software counts now as archive targets?

simondotau 4y ago
For what it’s worth, Apple themselves characterise the earliest iOS hardware as “obsolete”. https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT201624 https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT201624
- iguessthislldo 4y ago
  Interesting that the Apple I and II are listed under "Mac desktops".

boomboomsubban 4y ago

The headline makes it sound like IA gets a special exemption, but they don't. They got a DMCA anti-circumvention exemption passed allowing anyone to bypass DRM on formats that use obsolete hardware. I regularly see people say IA can avoid DMCA strikes through a special exemption, but that is not the case. The rights holder could demand anything they archive be taken down, even these floppy disc games they secured an exemption for. It's great they got this passed, but it's not some major thing for them.

pabs3 4y ago
As a "library", IA also gets Section 108 copyright exemptions: https://copyrightalliance.org/education/copyright-law-explained/limitations-on-a-copyright-owners-rights/copyright-exceptions-libraries-archives/ https://copyrightalliance.org/education/copyright-law-explai... The rules are being updated for the digital age though: https://www.copyright.gov/policy/section108/ https://www.copyright.gov/policy/section108/
- ghaff 4y ago
  Nothing has actually happened yet though aside from lots of meetings. As the latter link explicitly says, the library/archive exception provides very little in the way of specific additional rights to digital archives.
danlugo92 4y ago
So the solution is as easy as modifying a law here and there and we could enable the archival humanity's progress?
capableweb 4y ago
One thing IA has going for them at least is that even though some material they have cannot be online and viewable by anyone, you can physically access their location and get access to any and all of the content, DMCA strikes be damned or not. Thanks to their library status if I'm not mistaken.
- MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago
  What if all lawyers were physicists too? We send electricity and light over wires and fibers to transfer the data using physics, thereby we are physically transferring the data.
  - karmakaze 4y ago
    Would matter replicators count?
  - capableweb 4y ago
    I think the argument is around accessibility and ability to copy it. If it's available from your home, everyone could easily access it and also easily copy it. If you have to go to a dedicated computer, at a physical location (California, US no less), basically only a small percentage of people actually have access to it, and are more or less unable to copy things at a grand scale.

schappim 4y ago

I've always been curious about how they manage to host all that software and provide emulation without anyone coming after them! This explains it!

dang 4y ago

Related: Internet Archive Gets DMCA Exemption To Help Archive Vintage Software (2003) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8848320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8848320 - Jan 2015 (8 comments)

moremetadata 4y ago

How does anyone trust software uploaded to the Internet Archive?

Incipient 4y ago
Any evidence to suggest we shouldn't?
- Joel_Mckay 4y ago
  I also encountered some nastiness looking for 30 year old x86 drivers for a project. If you can't find the CD hash signature, than all bets are off. Not Archive.org fault either, as most issues were on the original CDs too. =)
  - moremetadata 4y ago
    > CD hash signature How do you know the CD Hash Sig is genuine though? I see this with hash values on websites next to ISO and other files. Its like a really blatant confidence trick when you can pull one of those off!
    - TeMPOraL 4y ago
      > How do you know the CD Hash Sig is genuine though? You don't, unless you trust the source of it, or supply your own. > I see this with hash values on websites next to ISO and other files. This doesn't solve the problem you have in mind - verifying the file is genuine; it solves the problem of verifying that what you got is what you expected, i.e. what the site promised. The hash is there so you can detect download errors (used to be a much more frequent thing than it is now). Secondarily, because the files usually sit on a different server than the site itself, the hash lets you detect some cases of your download being tampered with in-flight, or the file itself altered on the server. Not all of such cases, just those where the attacker could affect the download, but couldn't modify the website itself.
      - 4y ago

haunter 4y ago

I don’t know how does that work but they became the de facto console ROM site. You not just can upload games but you can download them too, it’s not simply archiving but sharing too. The full SEGA library. Full Nintendo library (except the newest Switch games). Every single PS1-PS2-PS3 games. All the Xbox and Xbox 360 games. I love it because used physical games are insanely expensive and some of the digital stores are also shutting down (WiiU/3DS this month). And on top of that easy to get out of region games that never released for example outside of Japan. Anyways I except one day the companies going after IA. Especially Nintendo, they shut down several ROM sites yet IA have 10x times more and better selection.

mjevans 4y ago
In a sane world this would be a moot point. 1) There should be a compulsory fee option offered by every copyright registration office for them to provide a license (and possibly reproduce a copy of the work). 2) Enforcement of availability to maintain copyright, without the availability of the work it should default, irrevocably, to public domain. 3) Reasonable coverage: At least in the US copyright is intended to promote the progress of science and 'useful arts' (skilled 'trades'/work). The scope should be extremely narrow, and maybe even eliminated since _publishing_ is now vastly cheaper than ever before. 4) Reasonable duration: Even ignoring the coverage aspect, the duration should reflect a useful lifetime of information and the evolution of ideas and culture. Today's world moves far faster than in ages past, and yet copyright's been abused as an extension of what should be _trade_ mark. 5) Trade Mark is the intended consumer protection mechanism. Brand names and likenesses associated with them are covered by Trade Mark. Use in a for profit context that represents that brand.
- scarface74 4y ago
  > There should be a compulsory fee option offered by every copyright registration office for them to provide a license (and possibly reproduce a copy of the work). So should a AAA title that costs millions to produced be forced to license their game for the same amount as my tic tac toe game? > Reasonable coverage: At least in the US copyright is intended to promote the progress of science and 'useful arts' (skilled 'trades'/work). The scope should be extremely narrow, and maybe even eliminated since _publishing_ is now vastly cheaper than ever before. Publishing has been a relatively small part of the cost of media for awhile. It’s actually producing the content that’s expensive.

LocalH 4y ago

I've been saying for years that piracy is preservation. There are entire platform software libraries that would simply not exist nowadays without past piracy. If you care about the longevity of media, especially less popular media, then you'll pirate it. Anything less is failing to see the forest for the trees.