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The thing is you'd expect companies should also compete to remove such anti-features in order to claim market share from competitors. It's strange how rare that

The thing is you'd expect companies should also compete to remove such anti-features in order to claim market share from competitors. It's strange how rare that is.

pc86 4y ago
People don't care. They talk about caring, but when push comes to shove 90% of consumers will buy whatever is cheapest at that moment. If your $200 printer that will let you use whatever ink and whatever cartridge you want is competing with a $189 HP printer that will lock you in to its nonsense, HP is going to eat your lunch all day every day. Because the simple fact of the matter is that if people did care, what you're describing is exactly what would happen. HP (or someone else) would do something like this, a competitor would start buying ads talking about their open source ink cartridges and HP would start losing market share.
- happymellon 4y ago
  It's not like it isn't talked about on general TV. In the UK here I remember it being a question on the panel quiz show QI, about being the most expensive liquid on earth.
- moring 4y ago
  People don't even have a simple way to find out. How are you supposed to get reliable information on what printers block third-party ink? How are you even supposed to know that blocking third-party ink is a thing? BTW whenever these "how are you supposed to" things are pointed out, people are quick to say "just use ..." with several conflicting recommendations, which actually doesn't counter but support the point that finding out isn't easy.
  - fbdab103 4y ago
    Shopping for the optimal product is nearly impossible today with fake reviews, swapped product listings, silent part swaps without model changes, shrink-wrapped EULA-like devil bargins (can't use the dishwasher without installing an app requiring your contact list), etc. Not to mention the number of times a company is actively deceiving users with misleading language (eg I no longer know what TDP means). I find this is why I am increasingly outsourcing my purchasing decisions to Costco. It may not be the best option, but I typically only have to pick from ~3 models, and it was good enough for them to stock it on the shelves. More skin in the game than just a digital listing.
imgabe 4y ago
They do. You can see people recommending Brother printers right here in this thread. I also switched to a Brother black and white laser printer years ago and never had another printing problem. Later I found a Brother color laser printer at an estate sale and used that for years (didn't really need color, but it was a good deal). I don't know what the actual numbers are, but if I had to guess I'd say Brother has been stealing market share from HP for a while now, because their products are better. It's one of the top comments practically every time there's a thread like this.
- Oxidation 4y ago
  And apparently they are now doing a face-heel turn and joining the lockout party. Hopefully mine lasts forever, even though I keep feeding it eBay toner!
autoexec 4y ago
If every company can make a lot more money by screwing over consumers then every company will do it. Sometimes it will always be more profitable to refuse to give consumers what they're asking for than it would be to make a better product that everyone is happy to pay for no matter how much market share it might gain them. Companies exist only for themselves and for making money, and not for serving the people or making the communities they operate in better. They will happily hurt people and destroy the environment to get even just a little bit more wealth. We grant them the privilege of existing as legal entities though, so maybe we should start demanding they start doing more for us in order to keep or attain that privilege.
NoboruWataya 4y ago
Competition forces companies to optimise for the average/majority consumer preferences. The reality is that most of the user hostile features we talk about here on HN - vendor lock-in, non-repairability, monetisation of data, etc - are not important to most consumers, who value low cost and convenience above all else.
- account42 4y ago
  The problem is not that consumers don't value the right things, the problem is that they are not always informed enough to make the decisions that back their values. And this lack of information is intentionally achieved by underhanded business tactics, such as selling printers at or below cost but locking them to overpriced ink in order to make them seem low cost while actually having a higher total cost.

The thing is you'd expect companies should also compete to remove such anti-features in order to claim market share from competitors. It's strange how rare that is.

pc86 4y ago

People don't care. They talk about caring, but when push comes to shove 90% of consumers will buy whatever is cheapest at that moment. If your $200 printer that will let you use whatever ink and whatever cartridge you want is competing with a $189 HP printer that will lock you in to its nonsense, HP is going to eat your lunch all day every day. Because the simple fact of the matter is that if people did care, what you're describing is exactly what would happen. HP (or someone else) would do something like this, a competitor would start buying ads talking about their open source ink cartridges and HP would start losing market share.

happymellon 4y ago
It's not like it isn't talked about on general TV. In the UK here I remember it being a question on the panel quiz show QI, about being the most expensive liquid on earth.
moring 4y ago
People don't even have a simple way to find out. How are you supposed to get reliable information on what printers block third-party ink? How are you even supposed to know that blocking third-party ink is a thing? BTW whenever these "how are you supposed to" things are pointed out, people are quick to say "just use ..." with several conflicting recommendations, which actually doesn't counter but support the point that finding out isn't easy.
- fbdab103 4y ago
  Shopping for the optimal product is nearly impossible today with fake reviews, swapped product listings, silent part swaps without model changes, shrink-wrapped EULA-like devil bargins (can't use the dishwasher without installing an app requiring your contact list), etc. Not to mention the number of times a company is actively deceiving users with misleading language (eg I no longer know what TDP means). I find this is why I am increasingly outsourcing my purchasing decisions to Costco. It may not be the best option, but I typically only have to pick from ~3 models, and it was good enough for them to stock it on the shelves. More skin in the game than just a digital listing.

imgabe 4y ago

They do. You can see people recommending Brother printers right here in this thread. I also switched to a Brother black and white laser printer years ago and never had another printing problem. Later I found a Brother color laser printer at an estate sale and used that for years (didn't really need color, but it was a good deal). I don't know what the actual numbers are, but if I had to guess I'd say Brother has been stealing market share from HP for a while now, because their products are better. It's one of the top comments practically every time there's a thread like this.

Oxidation 4y ago
And apparently they are now doing a face-heel turn and joining the lockout party. Hopefully mine lasts forever, even though I keep feeding it eBay toner!

autoexec 4y ago

If every company can make a lot more money by screwing over consumers then every company will do it. Sometimes it will always be more profitable to refuse to give consumers what they're asking for than it would be to make a better product that everyone is happy to pay for no matter how much market share it might gain them. Companies exist only for themselves and for making money, and not for serving the people or making the communities they operate in better. They will happily hurt people and destroy the environment to get even just a little bit more wealth. We grant them the privilege of existing as legal entities though, so maybe we should start demanding they start doing more for us in order to keep or attain that privilege.

NoboruWataya 4y ago

Competition forces companies to optimise for the average/majority consumer preferences. The reality is that most of the user hostile features we talk about here on HN - vendor lock-in, non-repairability, monetisation of data, etc - are not important to most consumers, who value low cost and convenience above all else.

account42 4y ago
The problem is not that consumers don't value the right things, the problem is that they are not always informed enough to make the decisions that back their values. And this lack of information is intentionally achieved by underhanded business tactics, such as selling printers at or below cost but locking them to overpriced ink in order to make them seem low cost while actually having a higher total cost.