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> I'm amazed that this hasn't been regulated. The best way to regulate it is for people to stop buying HP printers. I haven't bought one for about 20 years.

by pdonis 4y ago

nhchris 4y ago
Thanks to ongoing consolidation of large manufacturing firms, this kind of attitude quickly leads to having nothing to buy. The only solution is collective bargaining in the form of regulation.
atahanacar 4y ago
Ideally, and by that I mean the average consumer is well-informed in every product they purchase, yes. But the average customer really doesn't know any better. You can't expect people to know an alternative exists when and unregulated market will always promote marketing over quality. >I haven't bought one for about 20 years. Just the fact that you are commenting on HN shows that you aren't the average consumer when it comes to electronics. People tend to overestimate the others' knowledge on topics they themselves are familiar with. A considerable chunk of printer "consumers" don't even know the difference between an inkjet and a laser printer. We can blame them all we want because they aren't "doing their research before spending money", but we don't even know what we are wasting our money on, especially with thing we aren't that knowledgeable about. Everyone values their time differently, so they may or may not research something before purchase depending on what they are buying. In short, no regulation means leaving sheep alone with wolves.
- pdonis 4y ago
  > unregulated market There is no such thing as an unregulated market. The only meaningful difference is between a free market--a market that is regulated solely by the voluntary choices of market participants--and a non-free market--which is at least to some degree also regulated by rules dictated and enforced by entities who are not market participants (the most common such entities, of course, being governments). Both types of markets are regulated; they're just regulated by different mechanisms. > will always promote marketing over quality No, a market in which consumers are either unable to perceive quality, or are unwilling to take the time to do so (possibly for rational reasons such as the lack of time or the product being so cheap that it's not worth the effort) will always promote marketing over quality. But that doesn't mean this is a "problem" that either needs to be or can be fixed by outside regulation. It can't be fixed by outside regulation because outside regulation makes the problem worse, not better; it makes consumers think their interests are being protected, when in fact regulatory capture means all that is really happening is that the biggest players are getting further entrenched because the cost of regulatory compliance shuts out potential competitors. It doesn't need to be fixed because consumers have the choice of what to buy or not to buy, and if they either can't or won't (again, possibly for rational reasons) take the time to choose based on quality, either they don't buy at all or they choose based on something else, and take the consequences. That's what not taking the time to perceive quality means: you choose to be at the mercy of whatever marketing or other information you do use to determine what to buy (or whether to buy), however unreliable it is. > no regulation More precisely, absence of outside regulation from entities like governments that are not market participants. See above. > means leaving sheep alone with wolves No, it means consumers make the choice of whether or not to be sheep, and take the consequences. Which is the only way to actually regulate a market and have the regulation actually improve anything. The wolves can't prey on consumers who refuse to be sheep, and that choice is up to the consumer.
  - scheeseman486 4y ago
    Or, you know, you could shoot the wolves.
    - pdonis 4y ago
      Sure, as long as you trust the government to accurately distinguish wolves from sheep and only shoot the wolves. Human history shows that governments have a very poor track record of doing this, and get worse at it the more power they are given.
  - atahanacar 4y ago
    >There is no such thing as an unregulated market Something something semantics... something something I'm not a native English speaker something something... I will use the correct definitions from now on though, so thanks for correcting. >No, a market in which consumers are either unable to perceive quality, or are unwilling to take the time to do so (possibly for rational reasons such as the lack of time or the product being so cheap that it's not worth the effort) will always promote marketing over quality. And as I said, ideally this wouldn't be the case. However, we are living in the real world where every statement in this sentence is unfortunately the case. >all that is really happening is that the biggest players are getting further entrenched because the cost of regulatory compliance shuts out potential competitors. While this may be true with some regulations, in this specific example it is the exact opposite. A fresh company with little capital won't be able to afford a razor and blades model the same way a giant company like HP can. An outside regulation that protects the consumers' interests will serve to make the playing field more even, giving the new company higher chances of actually succeeding. It reduces the risk of startups, because with correct rules higher quality/cost ratio guarantees higher success. >it means consumers make the choice of whether or not to be sheep, and take the consequences That only works if consumers actually know what the consequences are. As I said, there are probably countless purchasing decisions that you and I make that we don't even know are dumb. Everyone thinks they know the best for themselves until they find out their knowledge is negligible compared to what they don't know. Voting with your wallet doesn't work when the default for "not voting" is "I agree" and people don't care about voting. All of the achievements of humanity comes from collaborative effort, whether it be cumulative knowledge, joining of powers or protecting each-other's interests. Total individuality would only end up with the absolute domination of first-movers: people who managed to leave individuality behind and work as a group. The best way we currently have to avoid this is to have a democratic, all inclusive government that decides what rules we should set and follow.
throw0101c 4y ago
> The best way to regulate it is for people to stop buying HP printers. Except that there is always a new batch of people who don't know any better: * https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/ So companies can survive on that ignorance.
- netsharc 4y ago
  But people would ask their knowledgeable friends, or Google, about what printer to buy. Where's the point where the bad reputation of the company grows enough that sales begin to decrease? Maybe they already are in a death-spiral, and that's why they're becoming more cunty about the ink... Next, HP should pay influencers to write/record rave reviews about their printers, so if someone googles what printer to buy they think HP is good.
EMIRELADERO 4y ago
> The best way to regulate it is for people to stop buying HP printers. And to also outlaw those practices. Some things just shouldn't be left to market forces.
- pdonis 4y ago
  > Some things just shouldn't be left to market forces. No things should be left to government regulators. They make things worse, not better. Regulatory capture is a thing. I'm sure HP would love it if government regulation entered this arena; sure, they might have to pay some costs of compliance, but their competitors, who don't have as deep pockets as they do, will be hurt worse than they are--meaning their market position will improve.
  - EMIRELADERO 4y ago
    You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. Government is not intrinsically bad. Regulations have achieved many good things. Just because there is corruption and abuses of power doesn't mean society should refrain from employing regulatory measures through their representatives. Healthy markets exist, in part, because of regulatory action, not in spite of it.
    - atahanacar 4y ago
      And in a democracy, you can vote the government out. With a complete monopoly in a totally free market with no regulation, what can you do? Vote with your wallet even if it means you die from starvation? The end game is either complete extinction of humanity or anyone outside the monopoly becoming a slave for it.
      - philwelch 4y ago
        > And in a democracy, you can vote the government out. Most of the government consists of unelected bureaucrats who cannot even be fired by the elected officials. > With a complete monopoly in a totally free market with no regulation, what can you do? Start your own competing firm. That sounds hard, sure, but try starting your own government and see how that works for you! > Vote with your wallet even if it means you die from starvation? The only food monopolies in history were run by governments, and they led to a lot of starvation.
hedora 4y ago
The second best way is to only buy HP printers (without buying ink refills after the included set of supplies ran out). The last time I checked, this was roughly the same price as buying ink refills. Sadly, it is terrible for the environment, and probably wouldn’t correct their bad behavior.

> I'm amazed that this hasn't been regulated. The best way to regulate it is for people to stop buying HP printers. I haven't bought one for about 20 years.

by pdonis 4y ago

> I'm amazed that this hasn't been regulated. The best way to regulate it is for people to stop buying HP printers. I haven't bought one for about 20 years.

nhchris 4y ago

Thanks to ongoing consolidation of large manufacturing firms, this kind of attitude quickly leads to having nothing to buy. The only solution is collective bargaining in the form of regulation.

atahanacar 4y ago

Ideally, and by that I mean the average consumer is well-informed in every product they purchase, yes. But the average customer really doesn't know any better. You can't expect people to know an alternative exists when and unregulated market will always promote marketing over quality. >I haven't bought one for about 20 years. Just the fact that you are commenting on HN shows that you aren't the average consumer when it comes to electronics. People tend to overestimate the others' knowledge on topics they themselves are familiar with. A considerable chunk of printer "consumers" don't even know the difference between an inkjet and a laser printer. We can blame them all we want because they aren't "doing their research before spending money", but we don't even know what we are wasting our money on, especially with thing we aren't that knowledgeable about. Everyone values their time differently, so they may or may not research something before purchase depending on what they are buying. In short, no regulation means leaving sheep alone with wolves.

pdonis 4y ago
> unregulated market There is no such thing as an unregulated market. The only meaningful difference is between a free market--a market that is regulated solely by the voluntary choices of market participants--and a non-free market--which is at least to some degree also regulated by rules dictated and enforced by entities who are not market participants (the most common such entities, of course, being governments). Both types of markets are regulated; they're just regulated by different mechanisms. > will always promote marketing over quality No, a market in which consumers are either unable to perceive quality, or are unwilling to take the time to do so (possibly for rational reasons such as the lack of time or the product being so cheap that it's not worth the effort) will always promote marketing over quality. But that doesn't mean this is a "problem" that either needs to be or can be fixed by outside regulation. It can't be fixed by outside regulation because outside regulation makes the problem worse, not better; it makes consumers think their interests are being protected, when in fact regulatory capture means all that is really happening is that the biggest players are getting further entrenched because the cost of regulatory compliance shuts out potential competitors. It doesn't need to be fixed because consumers have the choice of what to buy or not to buy, and if they either can't or won't (again, possibly for rational reasons) take the time to choose based on quality, either they don't buy at all or they choose based on something else, and take the consequences. That's what not taking the time to perceive quality means: you choose to be at the mercy of whatever marketing or other information you do use to determine what to buy (or whether to buy), however unreliable it is. > no regulation More precisely, absence of outside regulation from entities like governments that are not market participants. See above. > means leaving sheep alone with wolves No, it means consumers make the choice of whether or not to be sheep, and take the consequences. Which is the only way to actually regulate a market and have the regulation actually improve anything. The wolves can't prey on consumers who refuse to be sheep, and that choice is up to the consumer.
- scheeseman486 4y ago
  Or, you know, you could shoot the wolves.
  - pdonis 4y ago
    Sure, as long as you trust the government to accurately distinguish wolves from sheep and only shoot the wolves. Human history shows that governments have a very poor track record of doing this, and get worse at it the more power they are given.
- atahanacar 4y ago
  >There is no such thing as an unregulated market Something something semantics... something something I'm not a native English speaker something something... I will use the correct definitions from now on though, so thanks for correcting. >No, a market in which consumers are either unable to perceive quality, or are unwilling to take the time to do so (possibly for rational reasons such as the lack of time or the product being so cheap that it's not worth the effort) will always promote marketing over quality. And as I said, ideally this wouldn't be the case. However, we are living in the real world where every statement in this sentence is unfortunately the case. >all that is really happening is that the biggest players are getting further entrenched because the cost of regulatory compliance shuts out potential competitors. While this may be true with some regulations, in this specific example it is the exact opposite. A fresh company with little capital won't be able to afford a razor and blades model the same way a giant company like HP can. An outside regulation that protects the consumers' interests will serve to make the playing field more even, giving the new company higher chances of actually succeeding. It reduces the risk of startups, because with correct rules higher quality/cost ratio guarantees higher success. >it means consumers make the choice of whether or not to be sheep, and take the consequences That only works if consumers actually know what the consequences are. As I said, there are probably countless purchasing decisions that you and I make that we don't even know are dumb. Everyone thinks they know the best for themselves until they find out their knowledge is negligible compared to what they don't know. Voting with your wallet doesn't work when the default for "not voting" is "I agree" and people don't care about voting. All of the achievements of humanity comes from collaborative effort, whether it be cumulative knowledge, joining of powers or protecting each-other's interests. Total individuality would only end up with the absolute domination of first-movers: people who managed to leave individuality behind and work as a group. The best way we currently have to avoid this is to have a democratic, all inclusive government that decides what rules we should set and follow.

throw0101c 4y ago

> The best way to regulate it is for people to stop buying HP printers. Except that there is always a new batch of people who don't know any better: * https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/ So companies can survive on that ignorance.

netsharc 4y ago
But people would ask their knowledgeable friends, or Google, about what printer to buy. Where's the point where the bad reputation of the company grows enough that sales begin to decrease? Maybe they already are in a death-spiral, and that's why they're becoming more cunty about the ink... Next, HP should pay influencers to write/record rave reviews about their printers, so if someone googles what printer to buy they think HP is good.

EMIRELADERO 4y ago

> The best way to regulate it is for people to stop buying HP printers. And to also outlaw those practices. Some things just shouldn't be left to market forces.

pdonis 4y ago
> Some things just shouldn't be left to market forces. No things should be left to government regulators. They make things worse, not better. Regulatory capture is a thing. I'm sure HP would love it if government regulation entered this arena; sure, they might have to pay some costs of compliance, but their competitors, who don't have as deep pockets as they do, will be hurt worse than they are--meaning their market position will improve.
- EMIRELADERO 4y ago
  You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. Government is not intrinsically bad. Regulations have achieved many good things. Just because there is corruption and abuses of power doesn't mean society should refrain from employing regulatory measures through their representatives. Healthy markets exist, in part, because of regulatory action, not in spite of it.
  - atahanacar 4y ago
    And in a democracy, you can vote the government out. With a complete monopoly in a totally free market with no regulation, what can you do? Vote with your wallet even if it means you die from starvation? The end game is either complete extinction of humanity or anyone outside the monopoly becoming a slave for it.
    - philwelch 4y ago
      > And in a democracy, you can vote the government out. Most of the government consists of unelected bureaucrats who cannot even be fired by the elected officials. > With a complete monopoly in a totally free market with no regulation, what can you do? Start your own competing firm. That sounds hard, sure, but try starting your own government and see how that works for you! > Vote with your wallet even if it means you die from starvation? The only food monopolies in history were run by governments, and they led to a lot of starvation.

hedora 4y ago

The second best way is to only buy HP printers (without buying ink refills after the included set of supplies ran out). The last time I checked, this was roughly the same price as buying ink refills. Sadly, it is terrible for the environment, and probably wouldn’t correct their bad behavior.