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> SARA WEXLER Will the union make any demands in the contract or bargaining process about USC and its relationship to the Los Angeles community at large — conce

> SARA WEXLER Will the union make any demands in the contract or bargaining process about USC and its relationship to the Los Angeles community at large — concerning rents, inequality, gentrification? > YONI HIRSHBERG I think those types of things fall outside of the scope of labor negotiations. So the contract will include things like our wages and working conditions. I think this is the way forward if we want widespread unionization. Unions have to focus on making the lives of their members better. Wading into culture wars, even if you think you are doing good, will in the long run cause division and weaken the unionization effort.

frostburg 4y ago
Yes, also I don't see what a grad student union and an university can do about inequality in the LA community at large. It would be a recipe for failure.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  If you organize well, then you have a voting block you can influence. Historically, union leaders have been extremely powerful because of this because they made sure to strengthen union ties (hosting social events, disability benefits/aid could come from the labor union instead of your employer, etc). The strengthening of social ties within the union gives you a pulpit from which to influence (e.g. if you know your union leader and you like your union leader and they're making sure you get treated well and taking care of you, you might set aside any personal beliefs / things you hear on the news and vote the way your friend is asking you to). In fact, the largest union leaders were as powerful as being a leader of a religious organization (think Jimmy Hoffa). Think about how much leverage cop unions and the Fraternal Order of Police seem to wield about public policy regarding policing as an example of the ways in which unions can organize to be a bulwark against more popular policies. So what a grad student union can do about inequality in the LA community at large is to organize their members to vote as a single block that politicians will want to court. And if they're too small on their own, they partner with other union leaders who share similar belief to recommend their members vote as one big block on specific issues. That's what community organizing means - organizing a block of votes for a shared purpose.
  - IncRnd 4y ago
    > The strengthening of social ties within the union gives you a pulpit from which to influence Hmm. If a pastor uses the church pulpit to convince their flock to vote a specific way, that's okay from your definition. If a well-loved ceo at a company spontaneously meets with the employees in the breakroom, over their free coffee and free lunch, and decides to use that pulpit to convince people to act a certain way politically, that's okay from your definition. There is a saying: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" [1] which is "used to say that one person or situation should be treated the same way that another person or situation is treated". [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/what%27s%20good%20for%20the%20goose%20is%20good%20for%20the%20gander https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/what%27s%20good%2...
    - verall 4y ago
      > If a pastor uses the church pulpit to convince their flock to vote a specific way, that's okay from your definition. I don't think they're saying that, just that it does occur. It's actually illegal for churches to convince their flock to vote a certain way specifically[0], since they get such sweeping tax benefits. [0] https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-elections-irs/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-el...
    - braingenious 4y ago
      > …that's okay from your definition. Can you point to where GP made a value judgment about what is and isn’t “okay” in their post? It kind of seems like you’re arguing against something that nobody said.
      - IncRnd 4y ago
        That comment was specifically to say how a student's union can effect societal changes unrelated to the purpose of the union, by the leaders of the union using their bully pulpit to coerce people to act. That is exactly what they said. They even gave the example of how to effectively use the bully pulpit: the corrupt Jimmy Hoffa, who incidentally was convicted for jury tampering, attempted bribery, conspiracy, and mail and wire fraud.
KyeRussell 4y ago
At least in my country (Australia), this is way more an issue with student unionism than unionism generally. Both because student unions are even more powerless to affect widespread change, and because they tend to focus on it more than traditional unions. I say this as someone that is quite pro-union, and someone that was quite involved in my student union when I was studying. We were one of if not the most powerful student unions in the country, with tens of millions of dollars of annual revenue. It was very much a launchpad for those aspiring to be career politicians. “Stupol” is a legitimate entrypoint into “real” politics and a large percentage of our elected representatives cut their politician teeth being involved in their student union. Thus, you end up with a bunch of naive wannabe politicians that quite easily get lost in showboating and “the bigger picture”, often taking away time, attention, or resources that could be put toward more directly helping the members.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  These are not undergrads unionizing. In USA what you are talking about is “student government”
- jltsiren 4y ago
  I have a similar background in Finland, but my view of student unions is less cynical. We had all major services separated from the student union. Restaurants were run by a company with a mix of professionals and student representatives in the board. Student housing was mostly owned by a foundation controlled by the student unions in the area. This helped to insulate them from day-to-day politics. There were only a few direct member services. When you have tens of thousands of members, there are not many things you can do in a centralized way without a field organization. Most of the time, it was better to support the work of actual student-run organizations than to try to provide the services yourself. Then there was the political mission. We had two largely separate groups: one focused on coordinating the work of student representatives in university administration, while the other tried to influence local and national politics with varying degrees of success. The most controversial part was the legal mandate to participate "in the implementation of the educational mission of the university [..] by preparing students for an active, informed and critical citizenship." Some factions used that to justify involving the student union in general politics. Regardless of what one thinks of that, student unions certainly help to train more competent career politicians. Finnish student unions, as well as the youth/student organizations of political parties, are structured to mimic national and local politics. In a few years, you reach the top, and you get to see how the system works from the perspective of top decisionmakers. That's the kind of experience you don't get in a decade of actual politics. Similarly, people who were interested in student politics quickly learned to have effective meetings. This was most obvious in the lower levels of university administration which often involved professors outside the administrative track. The average professor (or the average software engineer) has little idea what to do in a meeting, and even less idea how to run one. The result is a lot of incoherent rambling that wastes everyone's time.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
janalsncm 4y ago
There’s an interesting history between unions and immigration on Wikipedia. Here is my unsolicited summary. Initially unions were opposed, since unions work by controlling labor supply. Then they were in favor, since many union members were in favor.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  > Then they were in favor, since many union members were in favor. I don’t know if it was union members in favor of immigration or union leadership in favor of immigration.
- elicash 4y ago
  I haven't read the wikipedia article, but this depends on the union.
ouid 4y ago
What a refreshing fucking answer. The union that represents me is WAY too focused on DEI. The cynical part of me assumes that this is corruption.

frostburg 4y ago

Yes, also I don't see what a grad student union and an university can do about inequality in the LA community at large. It would be a recipe for failure.

vlovich123 4y ago
If you organize well, then you have a voting block you can influence. Historically, union leaders have been extremely powerful because of this because they made sure to strengthen union ties (hosting social events, disability benefits/aid could come from the labor union instead of your employer, etc). The strengthening of social ties within the union gives you a pulpit from which to influence (e.g. if you know your union leader and you like your union leader and they're making sure you get treated well and taking care of you, you might set aside any personal beliefs / things you hear on the news and vote the way your friend is asking you to). In fact, the largest union leaders were as powerful as being a leader of a religious organization (think Jimmy Hoffa). Think about how much leverage cop unions and the Fraternal Order of Police seem to wield about public policy regarding policing as an example of the ways in which unions can organize to be a bulwark against more popular policies. So what a grad student union can do about inequality in the LA community at large is to organize their members to vote as a single block that politicians will want to court. And if they're too small on their own, they partner with other union leaders who share similar belief to recommend their members vote as one big block on specific issues. That's what community organizing means - organizing a block of votes for a shared purpose.
- IncRnd 4y ago
  > The strengthening of social ties within the union gives you a pulpit from which to influence Hmm. If a pastor uses the church pulpit to convince their flock to vote a specific way, that's okay from your definition. If a well-loved ceo at a company spontaneously meets with the employees in the breakroom, over their free coffee and free lunch, and decides to use that pulpit to convince people to act a certain way politically, that's okay from your definition. There is a saying: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" [1] which is "used to say that one person or situation should be treated the same way that another person or situation is treated". [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/what%27s%20good%20for%20the%20goose%20is%20good%20for%20the%20gander https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/what%27s%20good%2...
  - verall 4y ago
    > If a pastor uses the church pulpit to convince their flock to vote a specific way, that's okay from your definition. I don't think they're saying that, just that it does occur. It's actually illegal for churches to convince their flock to vote a certain way specifically[0], since they get such sweeping tax benefits. [0] https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-elections-irs/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-el...
  - braingenious 4y ago
    > …that's okay from your definition. Can you point to where GP made a value judgment about what is and isn’t “okay” in their post? It kind of seems like you’re arguing against something that nobody said.
    - IncRnd 4y ago
      That comment was specifically to say how a student's union can effect societal changes unrelated to the purpose of the union, by the leaders of the union using their bully pulpit to coerce people to act. That is exactly what they said. They even gave the example of how to effectively use the bully pulpit: the corrupt Jimmy Hoffa, who incidentally was convicted for jury tampering, attempted bribery, conspiracy, and mail and wire fraud.

KyeRussell 4y ago

At least in my country (Australia), this is way more an issue with student unionism than unionism generally. Both because student unions are even more powerless to affect widespread change, and because they tend to focus on it more than traditional unions. I say this as someone that is quite pro-union, and someone that was quite involved in my student union when I was studying. We were one of if not the most powerful student unions in the country, with tens of millions of dollars of annual revenue. It was very much a launchpad for those aspiring to be career politicians. “Stupol” is a legitimate entrypoint into “real” politics and a large percentage of our elected representatives cut their politician teeth being involved in their student union. Thus, you end up with a bunch of naive wannabe politicians that quite easily get lost in showboating and “the bigger picture”, often taking away time, attention, or resources that could be put toward more directly helping the members.

selimthegrim 4y ago
These are not undergrads unionizing. In USA what you are talking about is “student government”
jltsiren 4y ago
I have a similar background in Finland, but my view of student unions is less cynical. We had all major services separated from the student union. Restaurants were run by a company with a mix of professionals and student representatives in the board. Student housing was mostly owned by a foundation controlled by the student unions in the area. This helped to insulate them from day-to-day politics. There were only a few direct member services. When you have tens of thousands of members, there are not many things you can do in a centralized way without a field organization. Most of the time, it was better to support the work of actual student-run organizations than to try to provide the services yourself. Then there was the political mission. We had two largely separate groups: one focused on coordinating the work of student representatives in university administration, while the other tried to influence local and national politics with varying degrees of success. The most controversial part was the legal mandate to participate "in the implementation of the educational mission of the university [..] by preparing students for an active, informed and critical citizenship." Some factions used that to justify involving the student union in general politics. Regardless of what one thinks of that, student unions certainly help to train more competent career politicians. Finnish student unions, as well as the youth/student organizations of political parties, are structured to mimic national and local politics. In a few years, you reach the top, and you get to see how the system works from the perspective of top decisionmakers. That's the kind of experience you don't get in a decade of actual politics. Similarly, people who were interested in student politics quickly learned to have effective meetings. This was most obvious in the lower levels of university administration which often involved professors outside the administrative track. The average professor (or the average software engineer) has little idea what to do in a meeting, and even less idea how to run one. The result is a lot of incoherent rambling that wastes everyone's time.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

janalsncm 4y ago

There’s an interesting history between unions and immigration on Wikipedia. Here is my unsolicited summary. Initially unions were opposed, since unions work by controlling labor supply. Then they were in favor, since many union members were in favor.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
> Then they were in favor, since many union members were in favor. I don’t know if it was union members in favor of immigration or union leadership in favor of immigration.
elicash 4y ago
I haven't read the wikipedia article, but this depends on the union.

ouid 4y ago

What a refreshing fucking answer. The union that represents me is WAY too focused on DEI. The cynical part of me assumes that this is corruption.