4 ms·

Why do we need to convince someone they don't "need" anything? Each person has the best information about their own situation to decide what they need (or even

Why do we need to convince someone they don't "need" anything? Each person has the best information about their own situation to decide what they need (or even want - you don't have to _need_ something to have to justify _wanting_ it)

yieldcrv 4y ago
Convince them not to want it
- masfuerte 4y ago
  Stop convincing them to want it
  - johnweldon 4y ago
    My somewhat libertarian take is that they themselves are best suited to judge what they should or shouldn't want. Not that there isn't a time for trying to bring a different perspective. But we should do it with humility, rather than assuming they're just wrong or misguided. So... yes "stop convincing them" is a valid argument. "convince them not to" is slightly shakier moral ground.
    - stouset 4y ago
      "What they should or shouldn't want" is already deeply influenced by housing policy. Cheap suburban homes which don't fully pay for their externalities are one result of this housing policy, and children grow up accustomed to this bizarro-world reality where increasingly tank-sized cars (this is—astonishingly—not even hyperbole) are the only practical means by which one can go from Point A to Point B. Meanwhile people in Europe live in denser areas with smaller, more fuel-efficient cars or where they can do most of their commuting by foot, bike, or rail. That is the norm for people from those cultures, and so they—like us—largely choose to continue living in a world similar to that in which they grew up. Given that one of these modes of living reliably produces a happier population and is significantly more environmentally and economically sustainable, that we're already in the business of promoting one style over another via housing policy, and that one of the core purposes of cooperative government is to find ways to promote outcomes that benefit everyone despite going against individuals' self-interest… what on earth is the problem?
      - cwalv 4y ago
        > Given that one of these modes of living reliably produces a happier population Is that really a "given"? > Given that ... one of the core purposes of cooperative government is to find ways to promote outcomes that benefit everyone despite going against individuals' self-interest As I see it, government promotes outcomes that benefit "everyone" only by protecting individuals' self-interest.
        stouset 4y ago
        Everyone already actively works at protecting their own self interest. We don’t need help promoting good societal outcomes when those are a natural result of people looking out for themselves. Government exists for us to collectively agree that there exist goals that require us to set aside self-interest for the better of everyone. It’s in my self-interest to take everything you own and to dump my waste in the nearest available yard that isn’t mine. Nobody wants to live in a world where people act like that, so we collectively agree that things are better off for everyone if we respect one another’s property rights and pay someone to take our trash and sewage somewhere else to be dealt with.
        cwalv 4y ago
        I see what you're saying .. and yes, it's (obviously) true that in order to protect individuals' rights we necessarily have to restrict some: to protect individuals' property rights means we have to restrict what non-owners are allowed to do with that property. But to say that Government exists to promote outcomes that benefit everyone against individuals' self-interest is like saying that pit-mines exist because we enjoy creating giant pits. Or that cars exist so that we can burn a bunch of fuel. The restrictions on individuals' rights are necessary evils, which need to be carefully considered and minimized. Hearing it framed the way you did does help me understand many peoples' points of view better though.
        stouset 4y ago
        That would be like saying government exists because we enjoy bureaucracies. We accept bureaucracies because it helps us achieve common good that wouldn’t exist if everyone only looked out for themselves. Roads and other infrastructure. Plumbing and water treatment. Sewers. Building codes. Schools for everyone. On and on and on these are things we’ve decided we’re better if everyone has access to or has to abide by, even if individually nobody would make it happen.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
If you think about it, younger market participants are being effectively priced out with just about every expense set against that generation. Even if they feel/think ( depending on philosophical bent in that area ) they need X, they may not simply be in a position to do that. I am obviously biased given that I currently exist in a suburb.
- bluGill 4y ago
  As already stated, young people are not allowed to build what they can afford.
nicbou 4y ago
What's best for them might not be best when everyone does the same. Suburbia is not sustainable.
lmm 4y ago
If it's a want rather than a need then you can pay your fair share of what it costs. I've got no objection to people who want to live a particular lifestyle doing so. But they should pay the costs that it inflicts on the rest of us.

yieldcrv 4y ago

Convince them not to want it

masfuerte 4y ago
Stop convincing them to want it
- johnweldon 4y ago
  My somewhat libertarian take is that they themselves are best suited to judge what they should or shouldn't want. Not that there isn't a time for trying to bring a different perspective. But we should do it with humility, rather than assuming they're just wrong or misguided. So... yes "stop convincing them" is a valid argument. "convince them not to" is slightly shakier moral ground.
  - stouset 4y ago
    "What they should or shouldn't want" is already deeply influenced by housing policy. Cheap suburban homes which don't fully pay for their externalities are one result of this housing policy, and children grow up accustomed to this bizarro-world reality where increasingly tank-sized cars (this is—astonishingly—not even hyperbole) are the only practical means by which one can go from Point A to Point B. Meanwhile people in Europe live in denser areas with smaller, more fuel-efficient cars or where they can do most of their commuting by foot, bike, or rail. That is the norm for people from those cultures, and so they—like us—largely choose to continue living in a world similar to that in which they grew up. Given that one of these modes of living reliably produces a happier population and is significantly more environmentally and economically sustainable, that we're already in the business of promoting one style over another via housing policy, and that one of the core purposes of cooperative government is to find ways to promote outcomes that benefit everyone despite going against individuals' self-interest… what on earth is the problem?
    - cwalv 4y ago
      > Given that one of these modes of living reliably produces a happier population Is that really a "given"? > Given that ... one of the core purposes of cooperative government is to find ways to promote outcomes that benefit everyone despite going against individuals' self-interest As I see it, government promotes outcomes that benefit "everyone" only by protecting individuals' self-interest.
      - stouset 4y ago
        Everyone already actively works at protecting their own self interest. We don’t need help promoting good societal outcomes when those are a natural result of people looking out for themselves. Government exists for us to collectively agree that there exist goals that require us to set aside self-interest for the better of everyone. It’s in my self-interest to take everything you own and to dump my waste in the nearest available yard that isn’t mine. Nobody wants to live in a world where people act like that, so we collectively agree that things are better off for everyone if we respect one another’s property rights and pay someone to take our trash and sewage somewhere else to be dealt with.
        cwalv 4y ago
        I see what you're saying .. and yes, it's (obviously) true that in order to protect individuals' rights we necessarily have to restrict some: to protect individuals' property rights means we have to restrict what non-owners are allowed to do with that property. But to say that Government exists to promote outcomes that benefit everyone against individuals' self-interest is like saying that pit-mines exist because we enjoy creating giant pits. Or that cars exist so that we can burn a bunch of fuel. The restrictions on individuals' rights are necessary evils, which need to be carefully considered and minimized. Hearing it framed the way you did does help me understand many peoples' points of view better though.
        stouset 4y ago
        That would be like saying government exists because we enjoy bureaucracies. We accept bureaucracies because it helps us achieve common good that wouldn’t exist if everyone only looked out for themselves. Roads and other infrastructure. Plumbing and water treatment. Sewers. Building codes. Schools for everyone. On and on and on these are things we’ve decided we’re better if everyone has access to or has to abide by, even if individually nobody would make it happen.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

If you think about it, younger market participants are being effectively priced out with just about every expense set against that generation. Even if they feel/think ( depending on philosophical bent in that area ) they need X, they may not simply be in a position to do that. I am obviously biased given that I currently exist in a suburb.

bluGill 4y ago
As already stated, young people are not allowed to build what they can afford.

nicbou 4y ago

What's best for them might not be best when everyone does the same. Suburbia is not sustainable.

lmm 4y ago

If it's a want rather than a need then you can pay your fair share of what it costs. I've got no objection to people who want to live a particular lifestyle doing so. But they should pay the costs that it inflicts on the rest of us.