6 ms·

Note that the authors compared blood erythritol level, not _intake_. Erythritol is also a metabolite, which is produced by the pentose phosphate pathway, and ha

Note that the authors compared blood erythritol level, not _intake_. Erythritol is also a metabolite, which is produced by the pentose phosphate pathway, and has been associated with metabolic dysfunction before. Check out this thread: https://twitter.com/Dr__Guess/status/1630548194907021313 https://twitter.com/Dr__Guess/status/1630548194907021313

richardhod 4y ago
Verbatim response to that tweet, from a highly qualified friend with relevant scientific expertise: "idk that critique is pretty dismissive of the actual experimental evidence that they generated in the study… consuming an erythritol sweetened beverage raises the erythritol level in the blood to a level that clearly causes an effect on platelets, and coincides with the difference between the measured levels in the observational study… seems pretty convincing to me".
- petra 4y ago
  Could you please ask your friend what he would recommend for a sugar substitute ?
  - culopatin 4y ago
    Monk fruit extract, without this stuff mixed in
    - thisisscience 4y ago
      yea, but why? it looks cool and all, but at least sugar gives you nutrients (energy calories).
      - KptMarchewa 4y ago
        The problem with modern nutrition is that people consume too much calories, not too few.
        thisisscience 4y ago
        I'm pretty sure you're referring to the poor health outcomes correlating with high caloric intake, which afaict, come from people's consumption of heating oils (seed oils): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil There's bound to be mixups what talking about sugars and fats. But these fuel oils are really really bad for us. We've demonized sugars unnecessarily. Right?
        KptMarchewa 4y ago
        No, exactly opposite. Fats are good, sugars are bad.
        Jarwain 4y ago
        Good fats are good, but there are bad fats too!
      - culopatin 4y ago
        Get your nutrients from everything else, you don’t need sugar for nutrients, and that’s not why you put it in a chocolate cookie
    - steveBK123 4y ago
      The problem with monk fruit is that while it seems relatively benign on its own, many/most commercial products that claim to be "sweetened with monk fruit extract" actually have other cheaper commercial sweeteners mixed in. If you google "monk fruit extract diarrhea" theres a good amount out there on this. So you may switch to monk fruit thinking its a better alternative but actually be consuming erythritol anyway.
      - culopatin 4y ago
        Ans that’s why I said “without the other stuff mixed in”.
  - V__ 4y ago
    If you want the lowest risk option and don't experience any of the side effects, aspartame should be your choice. A 'newer' and promising substitute is Allulose, though some people report bowel complaints.
    - tbalsam 4y ago
      Er... Aspartame is a NMDA receptor antagonist, but at a site where it actually increases NMDA activity. I get super panicky and jittery/feel like my nerves are physically overloaded with Aspartame. My mom would call her reactions "aspartame headaches" Each sweetener is different and different for different people. Allulose is not metabolized by the body but is free for all those bacteria to eat! Yum! Much much more sugar for the bacteria. It does taste truly lovely though, that said. Stevia glycosides are not bad at all with the taste a bit to get used to. Sucralose is just sucrose IIRC with three chlorine atoms... substituted on it? I think? It's not taken up in your intestine but it does block the transporter in bacteria/yeast that does take it up. So, havoc on the gut flora! I'm pretty sure it kills the bacteria/yeast too. I think. Acesulfate Potassium is okay but it activates your insulin receptors, so your blood sugar plummets. I can barely stay awake after a single diet cheerwine for that reason. Glycine is a fun one that's expensive that no one uses. It's literally the opposite of aspartame, even binds to the same receptor at the same receptor site, just... Opposite! It's also like magnesium in which lots of people could use to have it/maybe are deficient in it...I think (don't quote me on that please! D:) I always wanted to try it dusted on a blueberry cake donut. :3 We don't talk about saccharine, but D-ribose (this one is actually caloric) is very expensive but tastes fantastic and is great for your mitochondria to boot! It's a DNA building block as well. I use it when going on ultra-long physical excursions. Blackstrap molasses is great for cutting with any of the above sweeteners for cheap caramelly roasted toasted robust flavor without many calories. Inulin, a digestible fiber is also sweet and worth a shot! (I don't think it's super cheap, but I don't think it's break the bank or no). Oh, 70% sucralose solution is fun (and cheap!) too. It's 600x sweeter than sugar lol. It tastes almost soapy bitter it activates whatever receptors so strongly lol. I love it. Sometimes it leaks and crystalizes on the outside of the bottle. What a rush it is to have those. Oh, to see my life flash before my eyes like that again.... I use that as my emergency sweetener sparingly. I have a small bottle that's lasted me for years at this point. Stevia from Trader Joe's is my go to. I add it to beans with molasses and some garlic infused oil and some spicy stuff and such. Yummmmmmm. Gonna have to have some of that soon! So there you go. There's more of course (like some corn fiber of some kind IIRC), but those are a lot of the main ones. And erythritol. But I say use what's good for you. It's literally different for each person. They're drugs but boy do I like the sweet flavor, and Stevia is a good tradeoff for me that I've come to love so much. Hope that was interesting, if you made it to this point, thanks for reading and so much love! :)))) <3 <3 <3 <3 :))))
  - rjmunro 4y ago
    Why not just leave the sweetener out and get used to the real taste of things? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892765/#:~:text=artificial%20sweeteners%2C%20precisely%20because%20they%20are%20sweet%2C%20encourage%20sugar%20craving%20and%20sugar%20dependence https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892765/#:~:tex...
    - thanatropism 4y ago
      Underrated response. Can't you recommend someone stop drinking alcohol (for behavioral/psychological or physiological health issues) without giving him something that tastes like alcohol and inebriates you like alcohol?
wirrbel 4y ago
that effect should be controlled for in the control group, or isn't it?
V__ 4y ago
Good point. This paper gets more hype then is appropriate. First it looked at a group of already very sick people: > Over 40% had already had a heart attack. Over 15% were in heart failure. Over 25% had type 2 diabetes. Over 70% had hypertension. And over 70% had coronary artery disease! [1] This is important because: > people with this metabolic profile (Syndrome X) have been shown to have an overactive PPP & likely produce more erythritol (PMID: 20711518) Therefore, it is highly likely that this paper is simply a case of reverse causality. [1] This gets underscored through: > the authors’ finding that erythritol levels remain well above the cohort ranges for at least a day after consumption, suggests that none of the cohort patients were consuming erythritol in their diets [2] [1] https://www.instagram.com/p/CpQspxwgqgT/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CpQspxwgqgT/ [2] https://peterattiamd.com/more-hype-than-substance-erythritol-and-cardiovascular-risk/ https://peterattiamd.com/more-hype-than-substance-erythritol...
HideousKojima 4y ago
Here's a study from 2017 showing that adiposity (basically having a gut and/or being overweight as far as I understand) correlates to elevated levels of Erythritol in the bloodstream. n=264 and the test subjects are all college freshmen so presumably in much better overall health than the subjects of the study that's been getting hyped in the news, so definitely looking like reverse causality here: https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1620079114 https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1620079114 Edit: From the paper - "Erythritol was shown to be synthesized endogenously from glucose via the pentose-phosphate pathway (PPP) in stable isotope-assisted ex vivo blood incubation experiments and through in vivo conversion of erythritol to erythronate in stable isotope-assisted dried blood spot experiments. Therefore, endogenous production of erythritol from glucose may contribute to the association between erythritol and obesity observed in young adults."

richardhod 4y ago

Verbatim response to that tweet, from a highly qualified friend with relevant scientific expertise: "idk that critique is pretty dismissive of the actual experimental evidence that they generated in the study… consuming an erythritol sweetened beverage raises the erythritol level in the blood to a level that clearly causes an effect on platelets, and coincides with the difference between the measured levels in the observational study… seems pretty convincing to me".

petra 4y ago
Could you please ask your friend what he would recommend for a sugar substitute ?
- culopatin 4y ago
  Monk fruit extract, without this stuff mixed in
  - thisisscience 4y ago
    yea, but why? it looks cool and all, but at least sugar gives you nutrients (energy calories).
    - KptMarchewa 4y ago
      The problem with modern nutrition is that people consume too much calories, not too few.
      - thisisscience 4y ago
        I'm pretty sure you're referring to the poor health outcomes correlating with high caloric intake, which afaict, come from people's consumption of heating oils (seed oils): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil There's bound to be mixups what talking about sugars and fats. But these fuel oils are really really bad for us. We've demonized sugars unnecessarily. Right?
        KptMarchewa 4y ago
        No, exactly opposite. Fats are good, sugars are bad.
        Jarwain 4y ago
        Good fats are good, but there are bad fats too!
    - culopatin 4y ago
      Get your nutrients from everything else, you don’t need sugar for nutrients, and that’s not why you put it in a chocolate cookie
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    The problem with monk fruit is that while it seems relatively benign on its own, many/most commercial products that claim to be "sweetened with monk fruit extract" actually have other cheaper commercial sweeteners mixed in. If you google "monk fruit extract diarrhea" theres a good amount out there on this. So you may switch to monk fruit thinking its a better alternative but actually be consuming erythritol anyway.
    - culopatin 4y ago
      Ans that’s why I said “without the other stuff mixed in”.
- V__ 4y ago
  If you want the lowest risk option and don't experience any of the side effects, aspartame should be your choice. A 'newer' and promising substitute is Allulose, though some people report bowel complaints.
  - tbalsam 4y ago
    Er... Aspartame is a NMDA receptor antagonist, but at a site where it actually increases NMDA activity. I get super panicky and jittery/feel like my nerves are physically overloaded with Aspartame. My mom would call her reactions "aspartame headaches" Each sweetener is different and different for different people. Allulose is not metabolized by the body but is free for all those bacteria to eat! Yum! Much much more sugar for the bacteria. It does taste truly lovely though, that said. Stevia glycosides are not bad at all with the taste a bit to get used to. Sucralose is just sucrose IIRC with three chlorine atoms... substituted on it? I think? It's not taken up in your intestine but it does block the transporter in bacteria/yeast that does take it up. So, havoc on the gut flora! I'm pretty sure it kills the bacteria/yeast too. I think. Acesulfate Potassium is okay but it activates your insulin receptors, so your blood sugar plummets. I can barely stay awake after a single diet cheerwine for that reason. Glycine is a fun one that's expensive that no one uses. It's literally the opposite of aspartame, even binds to the same receptor at the same receptor site, just... Opposite! It's also like magnesium in which lots of people could use to have it/maybe are deficient in it...I think (don't quote me on that please! D:) I always wanted to try it dusted on a blueberry cake donut. :3 We don't talk about saccharine, but D-ribose (this one is actually caloric) is very expensive but tastes fantastic and is great for your mitochondria to boot! It's a DNA building block as well. I use it when going on ultra-long physical excursions. Blackstrap molasses is great for cutting with any of the above sweeteners for cheap caramelly roasted toasted robust flavor without many calories. Inulin, a digestible fiber is also sweet and worth a shot! (I don't think it's super cheap, but I don't think it's break the bank or no). Oh, 70% sucralose solution is fun (and cheap!) too. It's 600x sweeter than sugar lol. It tastes almost soapy bitter it activates whatever receptors so strongly lol. I love it. Sometimes it leaks and crystalizes on the outside of the bottle. What a rush it is to have those. Oh, to see my life flash before my eyes like that again.... I use that as my emergency sweetener sparingly. I have a small bottle that's lasted me for years at this point. Stevia from Trader Joe's is my go to. I add it to beans with molasses and some garlic infused oil and some spicy stuff and such. Yummmmmmm. Gonna have to have some of that soon! So there you go. There's more of course (like some corn fiber of some kind IIRC), but those are a lot of the main ones. And erythritol. But I say use what's good for you. It's literally different for each person. They're drugs but boy do I like the sweet flavor, and Stevia is a good tradeoff for me that I've come to love so much. Hope that was interesting, if you made it to this point, thanks for reading and so much love! :)))) <3 <3 <3 <3 :))))
- rjmunro 4y ago
  Why not just leave the sweetener out and get used to the real taste of things? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892765/#:~:text=artificial%20sweeteners%2C%20precisely%20because%20they%20are%20sweet%2C%20encourage%20sugar%20craving%20and%20sugar%20dependence https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892765/#:~:tex...
  - thanatropism 4y ago
    Underrated response. Can't you recommend someone stop drinking alcohol (for behavioral/psychological or physiological health issues) without giving him something that tastes like alcohol and inebriates you like alcohol?

wirrbel 4y ago

that effect should be controlled for in the control group, or isn't it?

V__ 4y ago

Good point. This paper gets more hype then is appropriate. First it looked at a group of already very sick people: > Over 40% had already had a heart attack. Over 15% were in heart failure. Over 25% had type 2 diabetes. Over 70% had hypertension. And over 70% had coronary artery disease! [1] This is important because: > people with this metabolic profile (Syndrome X) have been shown to have an overactive PPP & likely produce more erythritol (PMID: 20711518) Therefore, it is highly likely that this paper is simply a case of reverse causality. [1] This gets underscored through: > the authors’ finding that erythritol levels remain well above the cohort ranges for at least a day after consumption, suggests that none of the cohort patients were consuming erythritol in their diets [2] [1] https://www.instagram.com/p/CpQspxwgqgT/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CpQspxwgqgT/ [2] https://peterattiamd.com/more-hype-than-substance-erythritol-and-cardiovascular-risk/ https://peterattiamd.com/more-hype-than-substance-erythritol...

HideousKojima 4y ago

Here's a study from 2017 showing that adiposity (basically having a gut and/or being overweight as far as I understand) correlates to elevated levels of Erythritol in the bloodstream. n=264 and the test subjects are all college freshmen so presumably in much better overall health than the subjects of the study that's been getting hyped in the news, so definitely looking like reverse causality here: https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1620079114 https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1620079114 Edit: From the paper - "Erythritol was shown to be synthesized endogenously from glucose via the pentose-phosphate pathway (PPP) in stable isotope-assisted ex vivo blood incubation experiments and through in vivo conversion of erythritol to erythronate in stable isotope-assisted dried blood spot experiments. Therefore, endogenous production of erythritol from glucose may contribute to the association between erythritol and obesity observed in young adults."