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I have been toying with the idea of buying used panels in bulk and doing the same, but the payoff just isnt there at the current battery price. What kind of fra

by eppp 4y ago

I have been toying with the idea of buying used panels in bulk and doing the same, but the payoff just isnt there at the current battery price. What kind of frame did you install to mount the panels? I have tons of room for ground mount and would love to do it diy as soon as the costs line up.

Syonyk 4y ago
My system is grid tie, because the local plans review process and I didn't see eye-to-eye on batteries. I have a solar power trailer for backup power. https://www.sevarg.net/tag/solar2020/ https://www.sevarg.net/tag/solar2020/ documents the build. My frames are timber, though a neighbor built a very similar system with metal frames and 72 cell panels, and got his costs down quite a bit further - he's around $1/W installed, mine was somewhat higher at about $1.50/W (more expensive panels and a good bit more expensive frame setup). If you can weld, and find used pipe to build your frames with, you should be able to do sub-$1/W for a DIY install.
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  No welding is needed, you can use metal clamps to hold the pipes together. I have my panels on metal structure with no welding, I used bolts for joins.
  - Syonyk 4y ago
    Yes, but the clamps I've found designed for that sort of use are quite expensive, and add a substantial margin to the project cost - and they're not needed if you can weld it up, or have someone else weld it up. As I understand NEC from talking to various people and reading quite a bit of it myself, someone else can do the frames for a homeowner installed solar project, but "rails and up" has to either be the homeowner or a licensed electrician, because the rails are typically considered part of the grounding system and therefore electrical work. In any case, costs doing it yourself are far, far lower than paying someone else to do it. And ground mount is an awful lot nicer to work with than roof mount.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
      > but "rails and up" has to either be the homeowner or a licensed electrician, because the rails are typically considered part of the grounding system and therefore electrical work. Here in NM, you can (fairly easily) get licensed as the homeowner to do your own install of such a system. That's what did. My total cost (with those expensive metal clamps and nice aluminum panel rails etc) was around $1.80/W
    - AdrianB1 4y ago
      In think in my country I can do all the work myself and I need a certified electrician to connect it to the grid, nothing else. The law is very different from country to country, for me the labor was extremely cheap while the panels and MPPT are more expensive than in US.
- loeg 4y ago
  What do you use pipes for?
  - Syonyk 4y ago
    The physical structure. Replace the wood in my designs with welded hunks of old steel pipe and you have his design.
    - loeg 4y ago
      Thanks. I'm perplexed why you would need to weld pipes in this application if a wood structure is also suitable.
      - jamiek88 4y ago
        Simply because it's cheaper than clamps. Not easier, but cheaper. It's not for structural strength.
- fbdab103 4y ago
  I am not a home owner or at all in the market for DIY solar, but your documentation is a real treat. A true labor of love.
jrs235 4y ago
What if instead of batteries you hooked up a boiler to heat water or a deep chest freezer to cool water and then used heat exchangers to heat or cool overnight when solar doesn't work? I'm assuming no one does this because batteries are likely cheaper than this type of setup.
- Syonyk 4y ago
  You're welcome to do that, and it's something some off grid systems use, but the energy storage in that sort of thing is fairly poor. Go do the math on it, but you'll find a 55 gallon drum of water, from "room temperature" to "really darn hot" holds 15-20kWh of energy. It's useful, but not a staggeringly large amount for a typical house, that can easily use more than that on a single day's heating. Thermal mass storage requires a lot of mass to do anything useful, or the ability to run exceedingly high temperatures. Or a phase change. Molten salt storage can store a lot of energy, but you're at "very hazardously hot" temperatures with "stuff that's mind-bogglingly corrosive when hazardously hot." It's not the sort of thing most people would want to mess with at home. Myself included, and my tolerance for experimentation is pretty darn high.
  - Someone 4y ago
    > It's useful, but not a staggeringly large amount for a typical house, that can easily use more than that on a single day's heating. This article isn’t talking about typical houses of today. The typical future house should be a lot better insulated.
  - aaronblohowiak 4y ago
    The ground is massive and digging a trench can be done.. those systems for storing heat seem to be gaining some traction

by eppp 4y ago

Syonyk 4y ago

My system is grid tie, because the local plans review process and I didn't see eye-to-eye on batteries. I have a solar power trailer for backup power. https://www.sevarg.net/tag/solar2020/ https://www.sevarg.net/tag/solar2020/ documents the build. My frames are timber, though a neighbor built a very similar system with metal frames and 72 cell panels, and got his costs down quite a bit further - he's around $1/W installed, mine was somewhat higher at about $1.50/W (more expensive panels and a good bit more expensive frame setup). If you can weld, and find used pipe to build your frames with, you should be able to do sub-$1/W for a DIY install.

AdrianB1 4y ago
No welding is needed, you can use metal clamps to hold the pipes together. I have my panels on metal structure with no welding, I used bolts for joins.
- Syonyk 4y ago
  Yes, but the clamps I've found designed for that sort of use are quite expensive, and add a substantial margin to the project cost - and they're not needed if you can weld it up, or have someone else weld it up. As I understand NEC from talking to various people and reading quite a bit of it myself, someone else can do the frames for a homeowner installed solar project, but "rails and up" has to either be the homeowner or a licensed electrician, because the rails are typically considered part of the grounding system and therefore electrical work. In any case, costs doing it yourself are far, far lower than paying someone else to do it. And ground mount is an awful lot nicer to work with than roof mount.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    > but "rails and up" has to either be the homeowner or a licensed electrician, because the rails are typically considered part of the grounding system and therefore electrical work. Here in NM, you can (fairly easily) get licensed as the homeowner to do your own install of such a system. That's what did. My total cost (with those expensive metal clamps and nice aluminum panel rails etc) was around $1.80/W
  - AdrianB1 4y ago
    In think in my country I can do all the work myself and I need a certified electrician to connect it to the grid, nothing else. The law is very different from country to country, for me the labor was extremely cheap while the panels and MPPT are more expensive than in US.
loeg 4y ago
What do you use pipes for?
- Syonyk 4y ago
  The physical structure. Replace the wood in my designs with welded hunks of old steel pipe and you have his design.
  - loeg 4y ago
    Thanks. I'm perplexed why you would need to weld pipes in this application if a wood structure is also suitable.
    - jamiek88 4y ago
      Simply because it's cheaper than clamps. Not easier, but cheaper. It's not for structural strength.
fbdab103 4y ago
I am not a home owner or at all in the market for DIY solar, but your documentation is a real treat. A true labor of love.

jrs235 4y ago

What if instead of batteries you hooked up a boiler to heat water or a deep chest freezer to cool water and then used heat exchangers to heat or cool overnight when solar doesn't work? I'm assuming no one does this because batteries are likely cheaper than this type of setup.

Syonyk 4y ago
You're welcome to do that, and it's something some off grid systems use, but the energy storage in that sort of thing is fairly poor. Go do the math on it, but you'll find a 55 gallon drum of water, from "room temperature" to "really darn hot" holds 15-20kWh of energy. It's useful, but not a staggeringly large amount for a typical house, that can easily use more than that on a single day's heating. Thermal mass storage requires a lot of mass to do anything useful, or the ability to run exceedingly high temperatures. Or a phase change. Molten salt storage can store a lot of energy, but you're at "very hazardously hot" temperatures with "stuff that's mind-bogglingly corrosive when hazardously hot." It's not the sort of thing most people would want to mess with at home. Myself included, and my tolerance for experimentation is pretty darn high.
- Someone 4y ago
  > It's useful, but not a staggeringly large amount for a typical house, that can easily use more than that on a single day's heating. This article isn’t talking about typical houses of today. The typical future house should be a lot better insulated.
- aaronblohowiak 4y ago
  The ground is massive and digging a trench can be done.. those systems for storing heat seem to be gaining some traction