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I think you got this backwards. The 5th amendment means that the state can not force you to share information you have in your head, e.g. you can not be forced

I think you got this backwards. The 5th amendment means that the state can not force you to share information you have in your head, e.g. you can not be forced to give a password. But the state can force you to give a physical key, harware token, or a biometric read.

TeMPOraL 4y ago
Can they force you to give up the post-it on which you wrote down your password? If yes, are there any real limits to how much pressure they can apply before they give up? If no, what's stopping them from giving you a pencil and a stack of post-its, and letting you know they'll keep applying pressure until you produce a post-it with the password on it, which they "know" you have "somewhere"? Point being, I feel this is getting into xkcd://538 territory.
- krastanov 4y ago
  Depends. If you have the resources to hire a lawyer, then what you describe is governmental overreach borderline on torture that will lead to the government paying out to you when you sue them and plenty of government employees being reprimanded or fired. If you do not have these resources and end up before unscrupulous law enforcement, you might very well have your rights abused until a journalist or the ACLU or some other equivalent decides to fight for you.
kaba0 4y ago
Oh yeah, for some reason my brain reversed the logic, thanks! :D Though certain EU courts can “make you give up” your password, as far as I know. Nonetheless, security is only good when it is used — widely-used biometrics with a potentially stronger password (due to not having to enter it all the times) is statistically safer for the population over everyone having “password1” as a secret. Especially with a good fallback like emergency mode on iphone/apple watch. Afterwards only the password can unlock the device, and it is a single long press of two hardware buttons.
- krastanov 4y ago
  You are right about the EU. There are many free democracies that do not consider passwords to be protected under their "no self-incrimination" version of the US 5th amendment.
- crimsontech 4y ago
  They can’t …prove… you know a key to decrypt data, but in the UK you can be charged under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. “RIPA regulates the manner in which certain public bodies may conduct surveillance and access a person's electronic communications. The Act: enables certain public bodies to demand that an ISP provide access to a customer's communications in secret; enables mass surveillance of communications in transit; enables certain public bodies to demand ISPs fit equipment to facilitate surveillance; enables certain public bodies to demand that someone hand over keys to protected information; allows certain public bodies to monitor people's Internet activities; prevents the existence of interception warrants and any data collected with them from being revealed in court.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_...

TeMPOraL 4y ago

Can they force you to give up the post-it on which you wrote down your password? If yes, are there any real limits to how much pressure they can apply before they give up? If no, what's stopping them from giving you a pencil and a stack of post-its, and letting you know they'll keep applying pressure until you produce a post-it with the password on it, which they "know" you have "somewhere"? Point being, I feel this is getting into xkcd://538 territory.

krastanov 4y ago
Depends. If you have the resources to hire a lawyer, then what you describe is governmental overreach borderline on torture that will lead to the government paying out to you when you sue them and plenty of government employees being reprimanded or fired. If you do not have these resources and end up before unscrupulous law enforcement, you might very well have your rights abused until a journalist or the ACLU or some other equivalent decides to fight for you.

kaba0 4y ago

Oh yeah, for some reason my brain reversed the logic, thanks! :D Though certain EU courts can “make you give up” your password, as far as I know. Nonetheless, security is only good when it is used — widely-used biometrics with a potentially stronger password (due to not having to enter it all the times) is statistically safer for the population over everyone having “password1” as a secret. Especially with a good fallback like emergency mode on iphone/apple watch. Afterwards only the password can unlock the device, and it is a single long press of two hardware buttons.

krastanov 4y ago
You are right about the EU. There are many free democracies that do not consider passwords to be protected under their "no self-incrimination" version of the US 5th amendment.
crimsontech 4y ago
They can’t …prove… you know a key to decrypt data, but in the UK you can be charged under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. “RIPA regulates the manner in which certain public bodies may conduct surveillance and access a person's electronic communications. The Act: enables certain public bodies to demand that an ISP provide access to a customer's communications in secret; enables mass surveillance of communications in transit; enables certain public bodies to demand ISPs fit equipment to facilitate surveillance; enables certain public bodies to demand that someone hand over keys to protected information; allows certain public bodies to monitor people's Internet activities; prevents the existence of interception warrants and any data collected with them from being revealed in court.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_...