4 ms·

> Rust is the inverse of Perl: It makes the easy stuff hard. It's a bargain. Rust is pretty great, but it doesn't make some things easy because it would make

> Rust is the inverse of Perl: It makes the easy stuff hard. It's a bargain. Rust is pretty great, but it doesn't make some things easy because it would make everything else hard. This comment is amusing, mostly because Perl is so full of tradeoffs. Do you want to write something to do some string parsing quickly? Great language, maybe. Do you want to understand what you've written later? Maybe not so great. > Writing basic data structures isn't a niche, esoteric edge case. Not if you're using C, because the batteries are definitely not included. Want a resizable array, or hashmap? The answer is DIY. Not in the std library. Whereas all are provided by default in Rust. Picking a basic data structure off the shelf is a pretty nice feature for most applications. That said -- should you really need a custom implementation of a linked list, and you need to write and rewrite such an implementation all the time -- I'd understand if Rust wasn't your first choice. > Then, there's the 'community.' And I'm not sure anyone loves this attitude either. Keep it technical.

ok123456 4y ago
> And I'm not sure anyone loves this attitude either. Keep it technical. If I didn't include that proviso, I'd have someone arguing with me to the death about how I'm completely wrong and an idiot who doesn't understand the Correct Way of doing things.
- rat9988 4y ago
  This is the same as people behaving as jerks claiming that other people are jerks.
  - ok123456 4y ago
    It may be "not nice" but it's an accurate and sincere appraisal.
  - saurik 4y ago
    If you define "being a jerk" to include "calling out someone for being a jerk" then you will never be able to improve the situation.
    - nindalf 4y ago
      They’re not just calling out though. They’re condescending with their “airquotes”, they’re stereotyping with their broad strokes. It’s not useful criticism to simply say “this community was such-and-such”. I’d expect them to do better. Speak specifically to people saying something you disagree with. Don’t let it fester within you and then take it out on a broad group. And I know you didn’t do any of this, but you did seem to be defending some pretty low quality behaviour.
mwcampbell 4y ago
> And I'm not sure anyone loves this attitude either. Keep it technical. Still, we, the Rust community, should take the high road and respond to the criticism by assuming that it's valid and asking what we can do better. I, for one, don't want developers to reject my Rust-based library because of the community's reputation, especially once my library has a C API.
- mustache_kimono 4y ago
  > Still, we, the Rust community, should take the high road and respond to the criticism by assuming that it's valid and asking what we can do better. I have to disagree. I think this meme/issue has been talked to death. And I'm sure I find retrograde, sour-pussing about Rust just as distasteful as others find dewy Rust optimism. The answer is -- they're both silly. Draw the line at speaking about the tech or the comment or person in front of you. Speaking about stereotypes in "communities" is about as vacuous as a Valley Girl's/Perl programmer's head[0]. [0]: a joke!
  - spoiler 4y ago
    But also, where is this malevolent, toxic Rust community that disgruntled C++ developers always engage with? I've yet to encounter a single person from this unstoppable force of sanctimonious assholes ruining everyone's fun on non-Rust projects. By their accounts Rust is a mental health catastrophe for our industry. Anyway, shit posting aside. I do agree with them that the Rust community is a bit eager to suggest rewriting stuff in Rust. However... I think this has always been the case for every developer who likes a language. I've seen Ruby devs talk with a passion for Ruby, and Elixir devs about Elixir, and Haskell devs about Haskell. You get the point. Except I suspect Rust just incredibly grids the gears of some C++ devs. I see how it can be irritating, especial if they've decided C++ is the language they "settled in" with. There's the implied (and irrational) existential threat that this new technology is going to ruin their future prospects. This is probably subconscious and also completely irrational. C++ is too big and too commercialised to go away anyway. I've seen a similar thing when TypeScript was being adopted and I was pushing for TypeScript (or Flow) adoption at work. Some people seemed to have an allergic reaction to any mention of TypeScript. There was people calling the TypeScript community toxic, immature, incompetent, holier-than-thou for arguing why types make code easier to maintain and write. And some of the arguments were they don't want to use the language that had such a childish community. Edit: On second thoughts I feel a bit like an asshole too, and a bit regretful and ashamed I stooped so low to even write this comment. Others wrote more level headed replies than I did, too. Anyway, let it serve me as a reminder not to engage with trolls in the future.
hitekker 4y ago
[flagged]
- mustache_kimono 4y ago
  I've actually read the full comment you're referencing and your take absolutely mischaracterizes what was said. Whether your take is malicious or merely reckless, I don't know, but I do know your take is the precise opposite of what was said. Others can read the entire comment themselves[0], but the pertinent part re: this individual discussing 'unsafe' can be found in the second graph: "[W]hen you're learning new things and thus reading introductory material, you'll often see pithy statements that you may interpret as being commandments or something that is supposed to always be true, but in reality they are imprecise statements because it is just impossible to explain everything up front." [0]: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/11eyu50/i_love_rust_i_have_a_pet_peeve_with_the_community/jahl5nj/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/11eyu50/i_love_rust_i...
  - hitekker 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - burntsushi 4y ago
      Congrats. You're the first person I know of to accuse me of dog whistling. Being "extremely online" for about two decades now, I'd say that's pretty damn good. So what am I dog whistling exactly? That people shouldn't use 'unsafe'? Lol. Wow, I really came out swinging! pats self on back I am actually teaching my toddler how to use a knife. So I'm not sure how that follows... The GP is right. My comment was sincere and means the exact opposite of what you accuse me of "implying" or "dog whistling."

ok123456 4y ago

> And I'm not sure anyone loves this attitude either. Keep it technical. If I didn't include that proviso, I'd have someone arguing with me to the death about how I'm completely wrong and an idiot who doesn't understand the Correct Way of doing things.

rat9988 4y ago
This is the same as people behaving as jerks claiming that other people are jerks.
- ok123456 4y ago
  It may be "not nice" but it's an accurate and sincere appraisal.
- saurik 4y ago
  If you define "being a jerk" to include "calling out someone for being a jerk" then you will never be able to improve the situation.
  - nindalf 4y ago
    They’re not just calling out though. They’re condescending with their “airquotes”, they’re stereotyping with their broad strokes. It’s not useful criticism to simply say “this community was such-and-such”. I’d expect them to do better. Speak specifically to people saying something you disagree with. Don’t let it fester within you and then take it out on a broad group. And I know you didn’t do any of this, but you did seem to be defending some pretty low quality behaviour.

mwcampbell 4y ago

> And I'm not sure anyone loves this attitude either. Keep it technical. Still, we, the Rust community, should take the high road and respond to the criticism by assuming that it's valid and asking what we can do better. I, for one, don't want developers to reject my Rust-based library because of the community's reputation, especially once my library has a C API.

mustache_kimono 4y ago
> Still, we, the Rust community, should take the high road and respond to the criticism by assuming that it's valid and asking what we can do better. I have to disagree. I think this meme/issue has been talked to death. And I'm sure I find retrograde, sour-pussing about Rust just as distasteful as others find dewy Rust optimism. The answer is -- they're both silly. Draw the line at speaking about the tech or the comment or person in front of you. Speaking about stereotypes in "communities" is about as vacuous as a Valley Girl's/Perl programmer's head[0]. [0]: a joke!
- spoiler 4y ago
  But also, where is this malevolent, toxic Rust community that disgruntled C++ developers always engage with? I've yet to encounter a single person from this unstoppable force of sanctimonious assholes ruining everyone's fun on non-Rust projects. By their accounts Rust is a mental health catastrophe for our industry. Anyway, shit posting aside. I do agree with them that the Rust community is a bit eager to suggest rewriting stuff in Rust. However... I think this has always been the case for every developer who likes a language. I've seen Ruby devs talk with a passion for Ruby, and Elixir devs about Elixir, and Haskell devs about Haskell. You get the point. Except I suspect Rust just incredibly grids the gears of some C++ devs. I see how it can be irritating, especial if they've decided C++ is the language they "settled in" with. There's the implied (and irrational) existential threat that this new technology is going to ruin their future prospects. This is probably subconscious and also completely irrational. C++ is too big and too commercialised to go away anyway. I've seen a similar thing when TypeScript was being adopted and I was pushing for TypeScript (or Flow) adoption at work. Some people seemed to have an allergic reaction to any mention of TypeScript. There was people calling the TypeScript community toxic, immature, incompetent, holier-than-thou for arguing why types make code easier to maintain and write. And some of the arguments were they don't want to use the language that had such a childish community. Edit: On second thoughts I feel a bit like an asshole too, and a bit regretful and ashamed I stooped so low to even write this comment. Others wrote more level headed replies than I did, too. Anyway, let it serve me as a reminder not to engage with trolls in the future.

hitekker 4y ago

[flagged]

mustache_kimono 4y ago
I've actually read the full comment you're referencing and your take absolutely mischaracterizes what was said. Whether your take is malicious or merely reckless, I don't know, but I do know your take is the precise opposite of what was said. Others can read the entire comment themselves[0], but the pertinent part re: this individual discussing 'unsafe' can be found in the second graph: "[W]hen you're learning new things and thus reading introductory material, you'll often see pithy statements that you may interpret as being commandments or something that is supposed to always be true, but in reality they are imprecise statements because it is just impossible to explain everything up front." [0]: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/11eyu50/i_love_rust_i_have_a_pet_peeve_with_the_community/jahl5nj/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/11eyu50/i_love_rust_i...
- hitekker 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - burntsushi 4y ago
    Congrats. You're the first person I know of to accuse me of dog whistling. Being "extremely online" for about two decades now, I'd say that's pretty damn good. So what am I dog whistling exactly? That people shouldn't use 'unsafe'? Lol. Wow, I really came out swinging! pats self on back I am actually teaching my toddler how to use a knife. So I'm not sure how that follows... The GP is right. My comment was sincere and means the exact opposite of what you accuse me of "implying" or "dog whistling."