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On other news, 80% of young people aged 13 to 17 years old from the same 13 EU Member States floked to tiktok, before that to instagram and youtube and before t

On other news, 80% of young people aged 13 to 17 years old from the same 13 EU Member States floked to tiktok, before that to instagram and youtube and before that to facebook. All along they were actively encouraged by authorities who are also there to "engage", endorsing and encouraging the new era of privacy is dead. Can we please stop beating about the bush? Surveillance, whether with commercial or political motives is a critical issue. Society is malfunctioning "at scale" while a sort of sheepish stalemate has taken hold. People are uninformed. Vested interests would rather keep it this way. These are grave risks and they must be taken seriously / discussed with the outmost transparency, objectivity and urgency.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago
Even if you are informed, it's hard to take action. Running solely FLOSS software is an option, but this is very impractical for many use cases, so your options are essentially 'make your life harder to preserve privacy' or 'privacy is dead'.
- seabird 4y ago
  You don't have to solely run FLOSS software. There's a lot of middle ground between between walking into the TikTok/Meta/Alphabet brain grinder for convenience's sake and Stallman-level fanaticism.
  - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
    Well, do you have any suggestions? (earnest question) I have been thinking/reading about this a lot in the past months (to the detriment of my mental health, unfortunately), and it seems like even non-FLOSS operating systems are somewhat invasive when it comes to privacy, let alone the software you run on them.
- college_physics 4y ago
  FOSS is not a guarantee of privacy by any means. For example there is the confusion about mastodon / fediverse type social media and what sort of firewalls its creates, for posts, for direct messages etc. I think FOSS means there is more transparency about what is going on, which is very important but not the whole story.
pantalaimon 4y ago
It's totally possible to use multiple forms of media an knowing that some of them are more survived than others and act accordingly. The issue is when there is no more private type of media left.
seydor 4y ago
I think that democracies won't survive AI, because they can't work when mass manipulation is that cheap. And it will be for the better because majorities end up increasingly oppressive. We ll have to invent a different adversarial mechanism that keeps people from starting civil wars while allowing individuals to be safe from mobs
- Xeoncross 4y ago
  True, dictators are the norm for human rule. Every book and movie out there has already pinned down the future as being one of a single, corrupt, world-wide government run by a psycho. Every now and then some group of people end up making a democracy, but most don't put as many power-checks up as the US did when it was created (3 different branches) so must only last about one generation. America's time is coming to an end. Crowds just aren't able to combat propaganda and other tactics from focused groups.
  - seydor 4y ago
    Dictators are authoritarians. I dont think we re heading there, the western world is still on the same Liberalism program that started with the enlightenment. However it is also clear that the most liberal places reap the biggest rewards because creative people tend to flock there (US). Maybe democracy has ran its course and we need to invent something better to continue on this centuries-long program
    - actually_a_dog 4y ago
      Lol!! France literally shut itself down today because of a general strike in response to raising the eligibility age for a state pension from 62 to 64, and somehow the US is one of “the most liberal places” in the world. Damn, I think you made my day https://apnews.com/article/france-retirement-age-strike-protest-macron-47c7b036a6478fdaf17c7d656002e858 https://apnews.com/article/france-retirement-age-strike-prot...
    - theloco 4y ago
      Yeah modern democracies are worthless. Take the Republican form of Government outlined in the constitution and make it where you have to be a stakeholder to vote. That means you're voting because you have an interest, not because you have a heartbeat.
saghm 4y ago
> On other news, 80% of young people aged 13 to 17 years old from the same 13 EU Member States floked to tiktok, before that to instagram and youtube and before that to facebook This group isn't static; people who were 13-17 years old when Facebook became popular are not the same ones who are 13-17 years old and using TikTok today. I'm not saying that hurts your argument, but it feels a little misleading to phrase it in a way that sounds like the group of people who flocked to Facebook back in the day are the same ones flocking to TikTok now. The teens who flocked to Facebook when it was new and popular with teens are now in their 20s and 30s; some of them might even be in government by now.
- college_physics 4y ago
  > some of them might even be in government by now. +1
vkou 4y ago
> endorsing and encouraging the new era of privacy is dead. You're being absurdly reductionist, because you're overloading the term 'privacy', which has two very distinct meanings, here, each of which are hit by three different threat vectors. The two meanings are: 1. Control over which information you actively communicate about yourself, and to whom - private correspondence, photographs, social media posts, tweets, etc. Are you actively peacocking your social life to your friends, and to extension, the world? [1] 2. Control over which information is passively gathered around you - tracking cookies, records made about you, cell location data, etc. The three threat vectors are: 1. Your peers, relatives, stalking strangers, boss, etc. 2. Some random company that wants to market to you. 3. Your domestic (and very, very, very rarely, a foreign) government. Police, spies, etc. There's a different set of rules, social norms, expectations, and laws, and expected benefit/harm outcomes around each of the six combinations in this matrix. There's a little bit of overlap between them (For example, #3 subpoenaing data gathered in #2 and #1), but it's silly to lump all of them together wholesale. [1] Everyone's doing it, if you're not doing it to some extent or other[2], most peer groups will socially ostracize you to some degree. [2] You can control the extent to which you are doing so.
theloco 4y ago
it seems to be more of a non-issue than the critical issue. people think they care, in reality, they don't. you walk into a mall, cameras everywhere. no problem. 1 guy points a phone at you to take a video. major issues. people are uninformed and misinformed, which is why EU websites sacrifice user experience for some arbitrary confirmation of "yes ill use cookies cause we know this website needs them". anyone that does conversion optimizations knows those "cookie consent" notices are for nothing and only serve to lower the user engagement on websites.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago

Even if you are informed, it's hard to take action. Running solely FLOSS software is an option, but this is very impractical for many use cases, so your options are essentially 'make your life harder to preserve privacy' or 'privacy is dead'.

seabird 4y ago
You don't have to solely run FLOSS software. There's a lot of middle ground between between walking into the TikTok/Meta/Alphabet brain grinder for convenience's sake and Stallman-level fanaticism.
- Tijdreiziger 4y ago
  Well, do you have any suggestions? (earnest question) I have been thinking/reading about this a lot in the past months (to the detriment of my mental health, unfortunately), and it seems like even non-FLOSS operating systems are somewhat invasive when it comes to privacy, let alone the software you run on them.
college_physics 4y ago
FOSS is not a guarantee of privacy by any means. For example there is the confusion about mastodon / fediverse type social media and what sort of firewalls its creates, for posts, for direct messages etc. I think FOSS means there is more transparency about what is going on, which is very important but not the whole story.

pantalaimon 4y ago

It's totally possible to use multiple forms of media an knowing that some of them are more survived than others and act accordingly. The issue is when there is no more private type of media left.

seydor 4y ago

I think that democracies won't survive AI, because they can't work when mass manipulation is that cheap. And it will be for the better because majorities end up increasingly oppressive. We ll have to invent a different adversarial mechanism that keeps people from starting civil wars while allowing individuals to be safe from mobs

Xeoncross 4y ago
True, dictators are the norm for human rule. Every book and movie out there has already pinned down the future as being one of a single, corrupt, world-wide government run by a psycho. Every now and then some group of people end up making a democracy, but most don't put as many power-checks up as the US did when it was created (3 different branches) so must only last about one generation. America's time is coming to an end. Crowds just aren't able to combat propaganda and other tactics from focused groups.
- seydor 4y ago
  Dictators are authoritarians. I dont think we re heading there, the western world is still on the same Liberalism program that started with the enlightenment. However it is also clear that the most liberal places reap the biggest rewards because creative people tend to flock there (US). Maybe democracy has ran its course and we need to invent something better to continue on this centuries-long program
  - actually_a_dog 4y ago
    Lol!! France literally shut itself down today because of a general strike in response to raising the eligibility age for a state pension from 62 to 64, and somehow the US is one of “the most liberal places” in the world. Damn, I think you made my day https://apnews.com/article/france-retirement-age-strike-protest-macron-47c7b036a6478fdaf17c7d656002e858 https://apnews.com/article/france-retirement-age-strike-prot...
  - theloco 4y ago
    Yeah modern democracies are worthless. Take the Republican form of Government outlined in the constitution and make it where you have to be a stakeholder to vote. That means you're voting because you have an interest, not because you have a heartbeat.

saghm 4y ago

> On other news, 80% of young people aged 13 to 17 years old from the same 13 EU Member States floked to tiktok, before that to instagram and youtube and before that to facebook This group isn't static; people who were 13-17 years old when Facebook became popular are not the same ones who are 13-17 years old and using TikTok today. I'm not saying that hurts your argument, but it feels a little misleading to phrase it in a way that sounds like the group of people who flocked to Facebook back in the day are the same ones flocking to TikTok now. The teens who flocked to Facebook when it was new and popular with teens are now in their 20s and 30s; some of them might even be in government by now.

college_physics 4y ago
> some of them might even be in government by now. +1

vkou 4y ago

> endorsing and encouraging the new era of privacy is dead. You're being absurdly reductionist, because you're overloading the term 'privacy', which has two very distinct meanings, here, each of which are hit by three different threat vectors. The two meanings are: 1. Control over which information you actively communicate about yourself, and to whom - private correspondence, photographs, social media posts, tweets, etc. Are you actively peacocking your social life to your friends, and to extension, the world? [1] 2. Control over which information is passively gathered around you - tracking cookies, records made about you, cell location data, etc. The three threat vectors are: 1. Your peers, relatives, stalking strangers, boss, etc. 2. Some random company that wants to market to you. 3. Your domestic (and very, very, very rarely, a foreign) government. Police, spies, etc. There's a different set of rules, social norms, expectations, and laws, and expected benefit/harm outcomes around each of the six combinations in this matrix. There's a little bit of overlap between them (For example, #3 subpoenaing data gathered in #2 and #1), but it's silly to lump all of them together wholesale. [1] Everyone's doing it, if you're not doing it to some extent or other[2], most peer groups will socially ostracize you to some degree. [2] You can control the extent to which you are doing so.

theloco 4y ago

it seems to be more of a non-issue than the critical issue. people think they care, in reality, they don't. you walk into a mall, cameras everywhere. no problem. 1 guy points a phone at you to take a video. major issues. people are uninformed and misinformed, which is why EU websites sacrifice user experience for some arbitrary confirmation of "yes ill use cookies cause we know this website needs them". anyone that does conversion optimizations knows those "cookie consent" notices are for nothing and only serve to lower the user engagement on websites.