5 ms·

If I care about what it looks like and want to precisely arrange my cables, I always lace. It's time-consuming, finger-aching work, though and I'm not as good

by mdip 4y ago

If I care about what it looks like and want to precisely arrange my cables, I always lace. It's time-consuming, finger-aching work, though and I'm not as good at it as I was when I was younger[0]. In my late teens, I worked at a telecom in desktop support and ended up on a multi-day project installing hardware at a switch site in Cleveland. They'd taken on a new director who was furious at the condition of the cabling/cable management[1]. I remember a piece of paper with a sliced black zip-tie taped to it and the words "FIRED" scrawled in big letters. Teams of two men were working throughout the site. They were ripping out/replacing a huge number of runs. During the week, a group was working on a bundle of what looked like thousand Ethernet cables coming from the ceiling, all labeled, starting out as a perfectly laced 3x2 ft rectangle through the channel in the ceiling and then falling into a spaghetti pile extending most of the floor of the large room. By the time I left, that channel was nearly done, the wires broke off at 40 or so points in different bundles ranging in size, but most were inches thick/wide, wires joined the bundle at various points in the metal channel causing the wire bundle that went to the floor, below, to be only a little smaller than the one coming in. Every curve of every bundle was visibly the same radius. After seeing what could be done, I decided to learn how to do it. :) [0] I'm not that old. [1] Some of the issues were straight-up code violations, but most were issues of good practice.

ilyt 4y ago
> If I care about what it looks like and want to precisely arrange my cables, I always lace. It's time-consuming, finger-aching work, though and I'm not as good at it as I was when I was younger[0]. I just use zip-ties. What is the advantage of lacing ?
- krupan 4y ago
  The linked article has your answer
  - brycedriesenga 4y ago
    It says the following, but I still don't get it. How does a hook-and-loop tie add that much more obstruction that it could be an issue? "This old cable management technique, taught to generations of linemen, is still used in some modern applications since it does not create obstructions along the length of the cable."
    - chiph 4y ago
      If you try and pull a bundle of wires out (like through an opening in a floor tile), Velcro loops will snag on anything with a edge to it. Zip-ties will definitely snag on the head and sometimes on the body. Lacing cord is continuous and flat, so it won't snag. I'm not saying Velcro and zip-ties don't have their place. If I'm securing a bundle to a wire support on a rack, I'll use Velcro because I know that sooner or later it'll get touched again.
- gregsadetsky 4y ago
  I'm not a pro at this at all, I've only done amateur small-scale cabling jobs. If I understand correctly, the arguments against zip ties are that 1) it's easy to overtighten them, which can lead to damage to network cables 2) they're obviously irreversible so less flexibility in the future? Am I overthinking this? There must be standard cable management practices (that are either pro/against zip ties)... can anyone recommend a guide? --- For what it's worth, found this: https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/res2/Best-practices-guide-for-cabling-data-center.pdf https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/res2/Best-practice... Use cable ties to hold a group of cables together or to fasten cables to other components. Choose Velcro-based cable ties versus zip ties, as there is a tendency for users to over-tighten zip ties. Over-tightening can crush the cables and impact performance.
  - wl 4y ago
    If you're using a lot of zip ties, you really need a zip tie gun. Not only do you get a consistent tension, but you also trim the excess at the same time.
    - cuSetanta 4y ago
      Love those things, a lot of fun to use and always get perfect results. They have some very nice ones with spinning heads to reach ties in difficult locations too.
    - katbyte 4y ago
      Still get the sharp edges
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Zip ties move. Lacing points are all attached. They don't slide along a cable like loose zip ties.
- readingnews 4y ago
  The person that comes behind you (or you) who cuts the ends of the zip ties off has never stuck their hands back in there, I bet. In tight spaces, the cut off zip ties become nice little knives, and will cut your hands when the zip ties are large. We did this on industrial equipment panels, and had to stop due to techs coming in after us and cutting themselves up in tight spaces.
  - 2ICofafireteam 4y ago
    Have you tried twisting them to break them?
- cuSetanta 4y ago
  In the space sector the mass savings over a whole spacecraft can really make a difference, and lacing doesnt introduce and hard edges that can lead to fraying or wear from vibrations. Additionally, lacing cord typically can handle much higher temperatures than space-rated zip ties.
- mdip 4y ago
  > What is the advantage of lacing It's a "pros/cons" thing to me. The big disadvantage is that it's far more time-consuming. The advantages are mostly aesthetic. For example, I have a 7.2.2 home theater setup with an AVR ... basically 14 cables going to the back of a device that is located in a place in my family room which makes it hard to obscure the cables. I purchased white speaker cables to match my white wax lace, laced the speaker cables each at ~1.5". The lace is coated in wax, so it will coerce the cables into the right position by wrapping it around an extra 2-3 times when needed. It's more invisible than zip ties -- there's no "nub". If you're lacing the way I was taught, there's no knot. Each cable in the bundle is individually tied, as well as the bundle which means "it stays where you tied it" far better than zip ties do. This also means you have to do almost all lacing "in place" because you can't fix mistakes after the fact. The result looks like one larger cable, made from 9 others in a horizontal row behind my receiver which makes a sharp turn directly into a port in the wall. I can remove my receiver and the 9 cables remain roughly in the same position because the lace holds. I used black lace to cover the black power cables (separated from the speaker/signal wires).
jiggawatts 4y ago
While I too love to see good cable layout, whenever you see a “thousand” Ethernet cables in one run, a foundational mistake has been made. Instead of 1000x 1 Gbps links, the proper way is to consolidate those into 10x 100 Gbps links or whatever works out to be the cheapest given the length of the run, the cost of the switch ports, etc… Any argument to the contrary has a solution. E.g.: even multi-tenant links with overlapping address spaces can be handled with nested VLANs (VXLANs). This is essentially how cloud providers and large metro network provides handle multiple customers. The last time I saw cabling like this was at a government department with “network techs” that didn’t get these basic concepts. Instead of having “top of rack switches”, they had one giant pair of switches in the corner of the data centre with bundles of cables coming out the thickness of my torso! The same department had a long building with switches in one corner and bundles of cables in the ceiling going to desktops over 100m away. In all cases this was done neatly. They loved cable porn, but didn’t understand networking!
- teepo 4y ago
  I like the old Softlayer / IBM Cloud cabling scheme: dual 10Gbps to TOR (red)and BOR (blue) and the 1Gbps green cabling into the IPMI. Here's a pic: https://newsroom.ibm.com/IBM-cloud?item=32774 https://newsroom.ibm.com/IBM-cloud?item=32774
- oasisbob 4y ago
  > While I too love to see good cable layout, whenever you see a “thousand” Ethernet cables in one run, a foundational mistake has been made. How about in large campus environments with extensive copper plants? Bundles arriving into an IDF for Ethernet/POTS serving several hundreds of pairs of eyeballs get big fast. Trunking doesn't save you here.
  - kazen44 4y ago
    Another example. Residential fiber networks can get messy very quickly, especially if its all based on AON instead of GPON, and requires a point to point connection between a customer's edge location and a site end location. Add in (older) coaxial networks in to the mix aswell, and you end up with thousands of bundles of fiber for even small towns. Also, keeping all that organised requires rigerious discipline and maintenance to keep it all tidy and neat.

by mdip 4y ago

ilyt 4y ago

> If I care about what it looks like and want to precisely arrange my cables, I always lace. It's time-consuming, finger-aching work, though and I'm not as good at it as I was when I was younger[0]. I just use zip-ties. What is the advantage of lacing ?

krupan 4y ago
The linked article has your answer
- brycedriesenga 4y ago
  It says the following, but I still don't get it. How does a hook-and-loop tie add that much more obstruction that it could be an issue? "This old cable management technique, taught to generations of linemen, is still used in some modern applications since it does not create obstructions along the length of the cable."
  - chiph 4y ago
    If you try and pull a bundle of wires out (like through an opening in a floor tile), Velcro loops will snag on anything with a edge to it. Zip-ties will definitely snag on the head and sometimes on the body. Lacing cord is continuous and flat, so it won't snag. I'm not saying Velcro and zip-ties don't have their place. If I'm securing a bundle to a wire support on a rack, I'll use Velcro because I know that sooner or later it'll get touched again.
gregsadetsky 4y ago
I'm not a pro at this at all, I've only done amateur small-scale cabling jobs. If I understand correctly, the arguments against zip ties are that 1) it's easy to overtighten them, which can lead to damage to network cables 2) they're obviously irreversible so less flexibility in the future? Am I overthinking this? There must be standard cable management practices (that are either pro/against zip ties)... can anyone recommend a guide? --- For what it's worth, found this: https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/res2/Best-practices-guide-for-cabling-data-center.pdf https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/res2/Best-practice... Use cable ties to hold a group of cables together or to fasten cables to other components. Choose Velcro-based cable ties versus zip ties, as there is a tendency for users to over-tighten zip ties. Over-tightening can crush the cables and impact performance.
- wl 4y ago
  If you're using a lot of zip ties, you really need a zip tie gun. Not only do you get a consistent tension, but you also trim the excess at the same time.
  - cuSetanta 4y ago
    Love those things, a lot of fun to use and always get perfect results. They have some very nice ones with spinning heads to reach ties in difficult locations too.
  - katbyte 4y ago
    Still get the sharp edges
sandworm101 4y ago
Zip ties move. Lacing points are all attached. They don't slide along a cable like loose zip ties.
readingnews 4y ago
The person that comes behind you (or you) who cuts the ends of the zip ties off has never stuck their hands back in there, I bet. In tight spaces, the cut off zip ties become nice little knives, and will cut your hands when the zip ties are large. We did this on industrial equipment panels, and had to stop due to techs coming in after us and cutting themselves up in tight spaces.
- 2ICofafireteam 4y ago
  Have you tried twisting them to break them?
cuSetanta 4y ago
In the space sector the mass savings over a whole spacecraft can really make a difference, and lacing doesnt introduce and hard edges that can lead to fraying or wear from vibrations. Additionally, lacing cord typically can handle much higher temperatures than space-rated zip ties.
mdip 4y ago
> What is the advantage of lacing It's a "pros/cons" thing to me. The big disadvantage is that it's far more time-consuming. The advantages are mostly aesthetic. For example, I have a 7.2.2 home theater setup with an AVR ... basically 14 cables going to the back of a device that is located in a place in my family room which makes it hard to obscure the cables. I purchased white speaker cables to match my white wax lace, laced the speaker cables each at ~1.5". The lace is coated in wax, so it will coerce the cables into the right position by wrapping it around an extra 2-3 times when needed. It's more invisible than zip ties -- there's no "nub". If you're lacing the way I was taught, there's no knot. Each cable in the bundle is individually tied, as well as the bundle which means "it stays where you tied it" far better than zip ties do. This also means you have to do almost all lacing "in place" because you can't fix mistakes after the fact. The result looks like one larger cable, made from 9 others in a horizontal row behind my receiver which makes a sharp turn directly into a port in the wall. I can remove my receiver and the 9 cables remain roughly in the same position because the lace holds. I used black lace to cover the black power cables (separated from the speaker/signal wires).

jiggawatts 4y ago

While I too love to see good cable layout, whenever you see a “thousand” Ethernet cables in one run, a foundational mistake has been made. Instead of 1000x 1 Gbps links, the proper way is to consolidate those into 10x 100 Gbps links or whatever works out to be the cheapest given the length of the run, the cost of the switch ports, etc… Any argument to the contrary has a solution. E.g.: even multi-tenant links with overlapping address spaces can be handled with nested VLANs (VXLANs). This is essentially how cloud providers and large metro network provides handle multiple customers. The last time I saw cabling like this was at a government department with “network techs” that didn’t get these basic concepts. Instead of having “top of rack switches”, they had one giant pair of switches in the corner of the data centre with bundles of cables coming out the thickness of my torso! The same department had a long building with switches in one corner and bundles of cables in the ceiling going to desktops over 100m away. In all cases this was done neatly. They loved cable porn, but didn’t understand networking!

teepo 4y ago
I like the old Softlayer / IBM Cloud cabling scheme: dual 10Gbps to TOR (red)and BOR (blue) and the 1Gbps green cabling into the IPMI. Here's a pic: https://newsroom.ibm.com/IBM-cloud?item=32774 https://newsroom.ibm.com/IBM-cloud?item=32774
oasisbob 4y ago
> While I too love to see good cable layout, whenever you see a “thousand” Ethernet cables in one run, a foundational mistake has been made. How about in large campus environments with extensive copper plants? Bundles arriving into an IDF for Ethernet/POTS serving several hundreds of pairs of eyeballs get big fast. Trunking doesn't save you here.
- kazen44 4y ago
  Another example. Residential fiber networks can get messy very quickly, especially if its all based on AON instead of GPON, and requires a point to point connection between a customer's edge location and a site end location. Add in (older) coaxial networks in to the mix aswell, and you end up with thousands of bundles of fiber for even small towns. Also, keeping all that organised requires rigerious discipline and maintenance to keep it all tidy and neat.