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90k Miles on My Tesla Model 3 – Maintenance Costs Higher Than Expected

43 points by aranchelk 4y ago

more_corn 4y ago
Who would have thought that Tesla refusing to allow the use of aftermarket parts could have a negative impact on consumers. It’s almost like having a monopoly allows companies to misbehave and overcharge.
- rasz 4y ago
  > Tesla refusing to allow They cant and they dont.
yuppie_scum 4y ago
“Also, I managed to peel off two parts of the undercar fiberboard aero shield. The first event happened when I hit 12” of water that I didn’t see in a flash flood at 40 mph. The second event happened when I drove my car out of the Brighton ski resort parking lot in 6” of packed snow.” This is not maintenance, this is repairing damage.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  6" of packed snow should not be a problem for a car designed in North America, right?
  - yoshamano 4y ago
    It would be a problem for my 2012 Honda Civic with 5.5" of ground clearance.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      I wouldn't expect it to damage the car
      - justinclift 4y ago
        Packed snow can effectively be "solid ice". Hitting that at any speed is unlikely to make for a fun day.
      - buffington 4y ago
        Packed parking lot snow can be surprisingly unforgiving. When I was a teenager I had a tiny Datsun 510. After a day of snowboarding I was making my way out of a ski resort parking lot and hit a small dip. The engine came down onto a tiny mountain of packed snow/ice and managed to crack both the radiator and the oil pan. That was an expensive day on the slopes. Maybe a freak accident, but that car was very light and I was surprised at the damage as well. My cousin worked at the resort at the time and he said it would happen frequently.
  - whitemary 4y ago
    "Packed" sounds like the key word here. Packed snow with tire ruts, which is common in the Brighton parking lot, can rip things off of many small/low cars quite easily.
  - polartx 4y ago
    I imagine this would be a problem uniquely experienced by super heavy cars with low ground clearance, (comparatively, of course), basically Teslas. Normally, heavy I.C.E. vehicles would have greater ground clearance (like trucks/SUVs), or lower ground clearance I.C.E. vehicles would be lighter. So if you were, for example, driving on compressed snow/ice and you had a low clearance, heavy vehicle (like a Tesla) you may sink deeper into the tire ruts subjecting everything between your left and right tires to an icy sledgehammer. (Or harmlessly high centering and being stuck)
  - lm28469 4y ago
    Designed in California
asguy 4y ago
> An internal combustion engine (ICE) replacement cost is ~$7000. It is much more complex than an electric motor. In addition, ICE cars have very complex transmissions (replacement cost ~$5000). You also have exhaust and emission control systems, which EVs do not have, radiator/cooling systems, etc., etc., etc. My last ICE car I bought new had a 10 year/100k mile powertrain and emissions warranty; I haven't had to replace the engine or transmission yet (which would be much more expensive than the article's quoted price). My recently purchased English-made "beater" SUV is 22 years old, and has 155k miles on it. I had to swap the radiator, drag link, and brake booster reservoir: my out of pocket was $1500. Obviously my points are anecdata, but leading with their examples feels like a massive EV cope. Outside of non-911 performance cars (I'm looking at you recent BMWs, Mercedes, Volvo cars and Porsche SUVs) ICEs have become insanely reliable: the engine isn't the weak link. Whether you're buying an ICE or EV, you still have to pay for: suspension, brakes, tires, windshield wipers, and "life support" parts. EVs owner should lead with the fact they get to push emissions output to the electric grid (which hopefully will become better because we can focus on centralized improvements) and they should continue looking improve the reality that battery production has a huge environmental and human cost (but could be made to get better).
- cjrp 4y ago
  > EVs owner should lead with the fact they get to push emissions output to the electric grid (which hopefully will become better because we can focus on centralized improvements) and they should continue looking improve the reality that battery production has a huge environmental and human cost (but could be made to get better). Tyre debris/pollution is starting to look like the next thing to be tackled[0], and EVs seem worse in that regard (heavier, and with wider tyres to cope with the extra torque). [0] https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/drivers-could-soon-face-paying-a-tyre-tax-to-help-tackle-emissions/ https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/drivers-could...
- DanielVZ 4y ago
  Also anecdotal but in my experience English made car maintenance is awfully costly.
idontwantthis 4y ago
Cabin heater failure causes the entire drive system to fail. This is Christmas light string level engineering. You are double fucked if your heating fails in a blizzard.
- pja 4y ago
  Supposedly they've replaced the cabin heater with a heat pump that doesn't kill the drive train if it fails. But you're right - it's terrible engineering to have the entire car shut down just because the in car heat fails.
  - rs999gti 4y ago
    > But you're right - it's terrible engineering to have the entire car shut down just because the in car heat fails. This kind of kludgey, fiddly, brittle, and complex engineering is quite common in German, Italian, French, and British cars. Especially modern German cars. Brilliant to drive, laughable to maintain
olliej 4y ago
I don’t know why people list transmission and engine full replacement costs as a maintenance cost of an ICE. The whole point of maintenance is that you don’t end up doing anything like that. Is it possible to blow up a maintained engine? Of course, ask anyone who has owned a WRX :) But if you are driving a normal (IE not “performance”) car and you aren’t just thrashing it, then I would expect multiple 100k out of an ICE. That’s said: 5k in maintenance over 90k doesn’t seem insane, especially given the great deal they got on their emergency replacement tires :-O
- bsagdiyev 4y ago
  It seems like a weird coping or logic mechanism? I don't get it. I'm not replacing the motor every 10k in my car. And the recent engine rebuild on my "race" car didn't even come near that cost using definitely more expensive aftermarket parts.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  How else could they say that ICE maintenance is more expensive than BEV, if they won't start rambling about nonsensical replacements? Like who really changes their transmission? You are changing clutch discs, if you don't know how to use clutch, but those does not cost XY thousand of dollars. Who replaces their engine after XY miles? If there is a problem with an engine, then you will fix the problem, i.e. replace filters or injectors. Replacement happens only if it has a catastrophic failure, like block split in half or a piston telling your bonnet "hello".
  - rs999gti 4y ago
    > Like who really changes their transmission? Hondas from the mid 90s to mid 2000s had bad automatic transmissions. It was more of a bad supplier than Honda, but Honda issued a voluntary recall letter to owners
jerkstate 4y ago
subtracting the stuff that would be common for ICE cars (tires, alignment, damage repair) the ~$2000 left over is substantially less than one would expect maintaining an ICE car for 90,000 miles to cost, even if nothing went wrong.
- bsagdiyev 4y ago
  Where? At 50k miles our last car had less than $2k in maintenance done and still was covered under warranty. We replaced one set of tires in that cost as well. I would say had we kept it to 90k miles we would still be less than or at 2k total.
- cjrp 4y ago
  After 90k miles in an ICE, if following the recommended service intervals I'd expect to pay for: - 9x oil/filter change - 2x air filter change - 1x fuel filter change - 2x spark plug change Other things like brakes, tyres, coolant I presume are the same as an EV so not worth including. In the UK you'd be paying about £1200/$1450 for that in a normal car (e.g. VW, not Porsche).
  - smileysteve 4y ago
    Brakes are different because of regenerative braking taking some of the load from the friction pads to the brushless motor. Coolant is different because it's a closed loop system that doesn't run at pressure near boiling at all times. 205f is ice coolant temperature.
    - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
      > Brakes are different because of regenerative braking taking some of the load from the friction pads. Yeah this works until you really need to break. Then they will seize because they got rusted by not being used.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
whatever1 4y ago
Welcome to the party folks. When people are complaining about maintaining an ice car, they are not replacing the crankshaft or transmission on an annual basis. Every single unscheduled maintenance that I have done for my 2 ice cars in the past 10 years, would also be needed if they were electric. Wire looms, position sensors for accelerator, airbag sensors, ball bearings, suspension, windshield, ac compressor etc Maybe I could had avoided some brake rotor changes with an electric car. But It was really infuriating when people would casually claim that electric cars don’t need maintenance.
- dhsysusbsjsi 4y ago
  I own a Model3 LR and an ICE. The Tesla is significantly more costly with insurance & tyres. It has also had a bunch of teething problems like broken camera, charging micro (stopping all charging). Fixed under warranty. 20,000km in 2 years. My ICE has basically had no issues in 7 years (77,000 km) except the cost of oil change once a year. But recently it developed a rattle, which I had investigated, resulting in a $2,000 invoice just to investigate (at one point it wouldn't start at the garage, and they just kept throwing parts at it to get it working again). Now it's got a rattle and won't sell. It will cost more than it's worth to pull the engine apart to find the problem (probably timing chain). Both are going to have issues. Overall though, for me, I'm more sensitive to time. So I'm scrapping the ICE for a ModelY.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    I wouldn't go back to that mechanic.
  - dewfaced 4y ago
    You should be doing oil changes every 5k (Some say 3k) miles/6 months. Once a year is not enough with the distance you are putting on it. You should have had about 10-16 oil changes. That would explain premature wear on your timing chain (More likely you have broken guides).
    - eMSF 4y ago
jacobgorm 4y ago
I have 100kkm on my 2016 BMW i3 with no issues.
hoseja 4y ago
Looks like a lot of early adopter kinks.
fwlr 4y ago
The costs seem reasonable to me. I think the issue is with the expectations. Cars need maintenance because they’re >1 ton hunks of metal moving through a semi-consistent subset of the outdoor environment at dozens of meters per second, regardless of whether they’re “thousands of tiny explosions every second”-type or “big spinny magnet”-type.
- kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
  It also shows the difference between a car designed by a company with many years of knowledge on how to make everything durable and cost-effective to own and repair (say, Honda or Toyota), versus a car designed by a startup.
rasz 4y ago
> An internal combustion engine (ICE) replacement cost is ~$7000. It is much more complex than an electric motor. In addition, ICE cars have very complex transmissions (replacement cost ~$5000). is he talking about the cost of swapping brand new Ford performance crate engine? Book time on engine swap is 10 hours x $100-150, transmission half that. Good second hand engine usually ~$1000, transmissions $500 used up to ~$2K brand new from manufacturer. But nobody sane replaces engine/transmission every time something breaks. > The third set was purchased at a Les Schwab tire store in Orem, Utah, where I arrived with a totally flat right rear tire. I had no opportunity to shop for tires and didn’t realize how much more I had paid aka got scammed >I don’t have the exact date and mileage because this is one of the older repairs which are no longer given under service history in the Tesla app on my cell phone wtf, you cant even see full service history of your car? >October 2021/~53,000 miles: remove and replace rear aero shield = ~$427.13 > February 2, 2023/88,705 miles: Remove and replace front aero shield (under car fiber apron) = $427.13. Third party is still a thing for cars thanks to Magnuson Moss. Stainless Steel front/back replacement set $280, Alu set $380. >I had two expensive repairs for items which were “not part of the drive system.” However, they caused the drive system to fail. It seems to me that Tesla should have fixed for free the two items that caused my drive system to fail since the drive system was still under warranty If you believe that argue with Tesla, get them into small claims etc.
hansvm 4y ago
ICE engines/transmissions are cheap and nearly bulletproof. It costs around $0.02/mile to fully replace them both with sub-100k used replacements every time they hit 250k miles, and the deal is a bit better than it seems because any decent mechanic will toss in a brand new timing belt and water pump while it's all exposed. Even if you paid the post's exorbitant rates by putting new engines and transmissions in ancient cars and doing so at 200k miles instead of waiting till they actually failed, you'd only be in for $0.06/mile -- less than insurance or gas individually in most situations. Fine article otherwise, and kudos for keeping track of the detailed costs. The framing against ICE engines is odd though, especially when not highlighting the things that actually make them more expensive to operate.
perryizgr8 4y ago
Disregarding the environmental aspect, it is insane how reliable ICE cars are nowadays. If you follow the maintenance schedule prescribed by the manufacturer, and barring any accidents, your car will rarely develop any problems at all. Even for 15-20 years. They just keep going. Yeah stuff like speakers and some electronics might give problems, but the core mechanicals will keep chugging longer than you would expect.

43 points by aranchelk 4y ago

Who would have thought that Tesla refusing to allow the use of aftermarket parts could have a negative impact on consumers. It’s almost like having a monopoly allows companies to misbehave and overcharge.

rasz 4y ago
> Tesla refusing to allow They cant and they dont.

yuppie_scum 4y ago

“Also, I managed to peel off two parts of the undercar fiberboard aero shield. The first event happened when I hit 12” of water that I didn’t see in a flash flood at 40 mph. The second event happened when I drove my car out of the Brighton ski resort parking lot in 6” of packed snow.” This is not maintenance, this is repairing damage.

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
6" of packed snow should not be a problem for a car designed in North America, right?
- yoshamano 4y ago
  It would be a problem for my 2012 Honda Civic with 5.5" of ground clearance.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    I wouldn't expect it to damage the car
    - justinclift 4y ago
      Packed snow can effectively be "solid ice". Hitting that at any speed is unlikely to make for a fun day.
    - buffington 4y ago
      Packed parking lot snow can be surprisingly unforgiving. When I was a teenager I had a tiny Datsun 510. After a day of snowboarding I was making my way out of a ski resort parking lot and hit a small dip. The engine came down onto a tiny mountain of packed snow/ice and managed to crack both the radiator and the oil pan. That was an expensive day on the slopes. Maybe a freak accident, but that car was very light and I was surprised at the damage as well. My cousin worked at the resort at the time and he said it would happen frequently.
- whitemary 4y ago
  "Packed" sounds like the key word here. Packed snow with tire ruts, which is common in the Brighton parking lot, can rip things off of many small/low cars quite easily.
- polartx 4y ago
  I imagine this would be a problem uniquely experienced by super heavy cars with low ground clearance, (comparatively, of course), basically Teslas. Normally, heavy I.C.E. vehicles would have greater ground clearance (like trucks/SUVs), or lower ground clearance I.C.E. vehicles would be lighter. So if you were, for example, driving on compressed snow/ice and you had a low clearance, heavy vehicle (like a Tesla) you may sink deeper into the tire ruts subjecting everything between your left and right tires to an icy sledgehammer. (Or harmlessly high centering and being stuck)
- lm28469 4y ago
  Designed in California

asguy 4y ago

> An internal combustion engine (ICE) replacement cost is ~$7000. It is much more complex than an electric motor. In addition, ICE cars have very complex transmissions (replacement cost ~$5000). You also have exhaust and emission control systems, which EVs do not have, radiator/cooling systems, etc., etc., etc. My last ICE car I bought new had a 10 year/100k mile powertrain and emissions warranty; I haven't had to replace the engine or transmission yet (which would be much more expensive than the article's quoted price). My recently purchased English-made "beater" SUV is 22 years old, and has 155k miles on it. I had to swap the radiator, drag link, and brake booster reservoir: my out of pocket was $1500. Obviously my points are anecdata, but leading with their examples feels like a massive EV cope. Outside of non-911 performance cars (I'm looking at you recent BMWs, Mercedes, Volvo cars and Porsche SUVs) ICEs have become insanely reliable: the engine isn't the weak link. Whether you're buying an ICE or EV, you still have to pay for: suspension, brakes, tires, windshield wipers, and "life support" parts. EVs owner should lead with the fact they get to push emissions output to the electric grid (which hopefully will become better because we can focus on centralized improvements) and they should continue looking improve the reality that battery production has a huge environmental and human cost (but could be made to get better).

cjrp 4y ago
> EVs owner should lead with the fact they get to push emissions output to the electric grid (which hopefully will become better because we can focus on centralized improvements) and they should continue looking improve the reality that battery production has a huge environmental and human cost (but could be made to get better). Tyre debris/pollution is starting to look like the next thing to be tackled[0], and EVs seem worse in that regard (heavier, and with wider tyres to cope with the extra torque). [0] https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/drivers-could-soon-face-paying-a-tyre-tax-to-help-tackle-emissions/ https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/drivers-could...
DanielVZ 4y ago
Also anecdotal but in my experience English made car maintenance is awfully costly.

idontwantthis 4y ago

Cabin heater failure causes the entire drive system to fail. This is Christmas light string level engineering. You are double fucked if your heating fails in a blizzard.

pja 4y ago
Supposedly they've replaced the cabin heater with a heat pump that doesn't kill the drive train if it fails. But you're right - it's terrible engineering to have the entire car shut down just because the in car heat fails.
- rs999gti 4y ago
  > But you're right - it's terrible engineering to have the entire car shut down just because the in car heat fails. This kind of kludgey, fiddly, brittle, and complex engineering is quite common in German, Italian, French, and British cars. Especially modern German cars. Brilliant to drive, laughable to maintain

olliej 4y ago

I don’t know why people list transmission and engine full replacement costs as a maintenance cost of an ICE. The whole point of maintenance is that you don’t end up doing anything like that. Is it possible to blow up a maintained engine? Of course, ask anyone who has owned a WRX :) But if you are driving a normal (IE not “performance”) car and you aren’t just thrashing it, then I would expect multiple 100k out of an ICE. That’s said: 5k in maintenance over 90k doesn’t seem insane, especially given the great deal they got on their emergency replacement tires :-O

bsagdiyev 4y ago
It seems like a weird coping or logic mechanism? I don't get it. I'm not replacing the motor every 10k in my car. And the recent engine rebuild on my "race" car didn't even come near that cost using definitely more expensive aftermarket parts.
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
How else could they say that ICE maintenance is more expensive than BEV, if they won't start rambling about nonsensical replacements? Like who really changes their transmission? You are changing clutch discs, if you don't know how to use clutch, but those does not cost XY thousand of dollars. Who replaces their engine after XY miles? If there is a problem with an engine, then you will fix the problem, i.e. replace filters or injectors. Replacement happens only if it has a catastrophic failure, like block split in half or a piston telling your bonnet "hello".
- rs999gti 4y ago
  > Like who really changes their transmission? Hondas from the mid 90s to mid 2000s had bad automatic transmissions. It was more of a bad supplier than Honda, but Honda issued a voluntary recall letter to owners

jerkstate 4y ago

subtracting the stuff that would be common for ICE cars (tires, alignment, damage repair) the ~$2000 left over is substantially less than one would expect maintaining an ICE car for 90,000 miles to cost, even if nothing went wrong.

bsagdiyev 4y ago
Where? At 50k miles our last car had less than $2k in maintenance done and still was covered under warranty. We replaced one set of tires in that cost as well. I would say had we kept it to 90k miles we would still be less than or at 2k total.
cjrp 4y ago
After 90k miles in an ICE, if following the recommended service intervals I'd expect to pay for: - 9x oil/filter change - 2x air filter change - 1x fuel filter change - 2x spark plug change Other things like brakes, tyres, coolant I presume are the same as an EV so not worth including. In the UK you'd be paying about £1200/$1450 for that in a normal car (e.g. VW, not Porsche).
- smileysteve 4y ago
  Brakes are different because of regenerative braking taking some of the load from the friction pads to the brushless motor. Coolant is different because it's a closed loop system that doesn't run at pressure near boiling at all times. 205f is ice coolant temperature.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    > Brakes are different because of regenerative braking taking some of the load from the friction pads. Yeah this works until you really need to break. Then they will seize because they got rusted by not being used.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

whatever1 4y ago

Welcome to the party folks. When people are complaining about maintaining an ice car, they are not replacing the crankshaft or transmission on an annual basis. Every single unscheduled maintenance that I have done for my 2 ice cars in the past 10 years, would also be needed if they were electric. Wire looms, position sensors for accelerator, airbag sensors, ball bearings, suspension, windshield, ac compressor etc Maybe I could had avoided some brake rotor changes with an electric car. But It was really infuriating when people would casually claim that electric cars don’t need maintenance.

dhsysusbsjsi 4y ago
I own a Model3 LR and an ICE. The Tesla is significantly more costly with insurance & tyres. It has also had a bunch of teething problems like broken camera, charging micro (stopping all charging). Fixed under warranty. 20,000km in 2 years. My ICE has basically had no issues in 7 years (77,000 km) except the cost of oil change once a year. But recently it developed a rattle, which I had investigated, resulting in a $2,000 invoice just to investigate (at one point it wouldn't start at the garage, and they just kept throwing parts at it to get it working again). Now it's got a rattle and won't sell. It will cost more than it's worth to pull the engine apart to find the problem (probably timing chain). Both are going to have issues. Overall though, for me, I'm more sensitive to time. So I'm scrapping the ICE for a ModelY.
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  I wouldn't go back to that mechanic.
- dewfaced 4y ago
  You should be doing oil changes every 5k (Some say 3k) miles/6 months. Once a year is not enough with the distance you are putting on it. You should have had about 10-16 oil changes. That would explain premature wear on your timing chain (More likely you have broken guides).
  - eMSF 4y ago

jacobgorm 4y ago

I have 100kkm on my 2016 BMW i3 with no issues.

hoseja 4y ago

Looks like a lot of early adopter kinks.

fwlr 4y ago

The costs seem reasonable to me. I think the issue is with the expectations. Cars need maintenance because they’re >1 ton hunks of metal moving through a semi-consistent subset of the outdoor environment at dozens of meters per second, regardless of whether they’re “thousands of tiny explosions every second”-type or “big spinny magnet”-type.

kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
It also shows the difference between a car designed by a company with many years of knowledge on how to make everything durable and cost-effective to own and repair (say, Honda or Toyota), versus a car designed by a startup.

rasz 4y ago

> An internal combustion engine (ICE) replacement cost is ~$7000. It is much more complex than an electric motor. In addition, ICE cars have very complex transmissions (replacement cost ~$5000). is he talking about the cost of swapping brand new Ford performance crate engine? Book time on engine swap is 10 hours x $100-150, transmission half that. Good second hand engine usually ~$1000, transmissions $500 used up to ~$2K brand new from manufacturer. But nobody sane replaces engine/transmission every time something breaks. > The third set was purchased at a Les Schwab tire store in Orem, Utah, where I arrived with a totally flat right rear tire. I had no opportunity to shop for tires and didn’t realize how much more I had paid aka got scammed >I don’t have the exact date and mileage because this is one of the older repairs which are no longer given under service history in the Tesla app on my cell phone wtf, you cant even see full service history of your car? >October 2021/~53,000 miles: remove and replace rear aero shield = ~$427.13 > February 2, 2023/88,705 miles: Remove and replace front aero shield (under car fiber apron) = $427.13. Third party is still a thing for cars thanks to Magnuson Moss. Stainless Steel front/back replacement set $280, Alu set $380. >I had two expensive repairs for items which were “not part of the drive system.” However, they caused the drive system to fail. It seems to me that Tesla should have fixed for free the two items that caused my drive system to fail since the drive system was still under warranty If you believe that argue with Tesla, get them into small claims etc.

hansvm 4y ago

ICE engines/transmissions are cheap and nearly bulletproof. It costs around $0.02/mile to fully replace them both with sub-100k used replacements every time they hit 250k miles, and the deal is a bit better than it seems because any decent mechanic will toss in a brand new timing belt and water pump while it's all exposed. Even if you paid the post's exorbitant rates by putting new engines and transmissions in ancient cars and doing so at 200k miles instead of waiting till they actually failed, you'd only be in for $0.06/mile -- less than insurance or gas individually in most situations. Fine article otherwise, and kudos for keeping track of the detailed costs. The framing against ICE engines is odd though, especially when not highlighting the things that actually make them more expensive to operate.

perryizgr8 4y ago

Disregarding the environmental aspect, it is insane how reliable ICE cars are nowadays. If you follow the maintenance schedule prescribed by the manufacturer, and barring any accidents, your car will rarely develop any problems at all. Even for 15-20 years. They just keep going. Yeah stuff like speakers and some electronics might give problems, but the core mechanicals will keep chugging longer than you would expect.