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> You detonate one over open waters and tell China to back down. Then China detonates ten over open waters, and tells "you" to back down and not go there. The

> You detonate one over open waters and tell China to back down. Then China detonates ten over open waters, and tells "you" to back down and not go there. The magic deterrent value of nukes (mutually assured destruction) doesn't work if one side can't assure destruction of the other. Even if Taiwan can manage such a show of nuclear force, China can (credibly) threaten to annihilate it if it attacks, but the reverse isn't true.

krisoft 4y ago
> The magic deterrent value of nukes (mutually assured destruction) doesn't work if one side can't assure destruction of the other. Even if Taiwan can manage such a show of nuclear force, China can (credibly) threaten to annihilate it if it attacks, but the reverse isn't true. Exactly! China has ~350 warheads, and they play a shell game where they have more silos than ICBMs and they are swapping the ICBMs around the empty silos and nobody knows which one is full and which one is empty. Which means if you are targeting their nuclear forces you need to spend much more warheads to knock out all of theirs. That is a lot of warheads (and delivery mechanism) to “secretly smuggle in”. And even after you somehow knock out all their nukes China has their conventional forces, they are angry and fair to say justified in tearing Taiwan apart. If Taiwan decides to target chinese cities. Do you think China will say “whoohooo, you won”? They will be very angry, the Chinese people will demand the attacker’s head, on top of Tawain just lost significant international support for basically killing civilians by the millions. Of course they can also aim at invading conventional forces, but if China is just a little bit competent they won’t bunch up enough of their troops to make a nuke justified. Meaning that Taiwan would waste a whole warhead and delivery mechanism to sink a single ship, or knock out an enemy harbour. They can do it, but they can also probably do it conventionaly. I don’t think brandishing nukes is going to help the Taiwanese government here.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > China has ~350 warheads... And more every day. I've read they're estimated to have 1000 by the end of the decade.
mupuff1234 4y ago
I just don't think that assumption is true. There probably is a pain threshold that beyond it China won't invade Taiwan as logically it just won't be worth it.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > I just don't think that assumption is true. There probably is a pain threshold that beyond it China won't invade Taiwan as logically it just won't be worth it. The question is, can Taiwan get there? I doubt it, and if it tries and fails to reach the threshold, it will only provoke China (or more specifically, the Chinese leadership). Limited nuclear war is an automatic loss condition for Taiwan, but it's only very costly to China. I believe nuclear weapons in Taiwan is one of China's stated red lines that will trigger war.
  - mupuff1234 4y ago
    So I think the big question would be what would be that threshold, and that would mostly be dependent on what is the CCPs main goal. If it is some ideological goal then I agree the threshold might be impossible to get to, but if the goal is to become the worlds super power than a few strategic nukes can definitely makes a big impact. Now I don't view the CCP as being fanatic, they have power based goals, and if those goals are made impossible by a few nukes then that should change things.

krisoft 4y ago

> The magic deterrent value of nukes (mutually assured destruction) doesn't work if one side can't assure destruction of the other. Even if Taiwan can manage such a show of nuclear force, China can (credibly) threaten to annihilate it if it attacks, but the reverse isn't true. Exactly! China has ~350 warheads, and they play a shell game where they have more silos than ICBMs and they are swapping the ICBMs around the empty silos and nobody knows which one is full and which one is empty. Which means if you are targeting their nuclear forces you need to spend much more warheads to knock out all of theirs. That is a lot of warheads (and delivery mechanism) to “secretly smuggle in”. And even after you somehow knock out all their nukes China has their conventional forces, they are angry and fair to say justified in tearing Taiwan apart. If Taiwan decides to target chinese cities. Do you think China will say “whoohooo, you won”? They will be very angry, the Chinese people will demand the attacker’s head, on top of Tawain just lost significant international support for basically killing civilians by the millions. Of course they can also aim at invading conventional forces, but if China is just a little bit competent they won’t bunch up enough of their troops to make a nuke justified. Meaning that Taiwan would waste a whole warhead and delivery mechanism to sink a single ship, or knock out an enemy harbour. They can do it, but they can also probably do it conventionaly. I don’t think brandishing nukes is going to help the Taiwanese government here.

tablespoon 4y ago
> China has ~350 warheads... And more every day. I've read they're estimated to have 1000 by the end of the decade.

mupuff1234 4y ago

I just don't think that assumption is true. There probably is a pain threshold that beyond it China won't invade Taiwan as logically it just won't be worth it.

tablespoon 4y ago
> I just don't think that assumption is true. There probably is a pain threshold that beyond it China won't invade Taiwan as logically it just won't be worth it. The question is, can Taiwan get there? I doubt it, and if it tries and fails to reach the threshold, it will only provoke China (or more specifically, the Chinese leadership). Limited nuclear war is an automatic loss condition for Taiwan, but it's only very costly to China. I believe nuclear weapons in Taiwan is one of China's stated red lines that will trigger war.
- mupuff1234 4y ago
  So I think the big question would be what would be that threshold, and that would mostly be dependent on what is the CCPs main goal. If it is some ideological goal then I agree the threshold might be impossible to get to, but if the goal is to become the worlds super power than a few strategic nukes can definitely makes a big impact. Now I don't view the CCP as being fanatic, they have power based goals, and if those goals are made impossible by a few nukes then that should change things.